everyone ignores the fact that sweden age up is slower. and even more so now with 100f taken away. cant physically age up faster unless u stop making vills with idle TC. but then overall eco slower while aging… which means you gonna die in age 2 from those rush civs coz they get there stronger and faster than you do.
and also the lack of vill cards in age 2 or 3. as opposed to japan whom can boom very powerfully mid game with the ability to send their vill cards TWICE. you cant boost swede vills fast.
lets face it. sweden the way it is now need the torps. if they nerfed the torps… they would have to change all the other things i mentioned. ie give vill cards, give back some way to age faster, more starting vills… etc etc…
it would just end up another vanilla mediocre civ with nothing unique or special about it. and probably not ever be played.
those that want this kind of predictability GO AND PLAY AOE2!
here is some suggestion for how to fix that without hurting lategame:
reduce resources saved from the card “Heavenly Kami” from -25% to 15%
reduce shrine HP to 1200
there 2 changes to balances japans early game eco that wont hurt them lategame.
all this being said i do wish they would make japan less “lame” in treaty, specifically by seriously nerfing shogun and daimyos, that is in my opinion a far bigger issue.
AoE2 already quintuples the playerbase of this game, because of better design.
But that is neither here nor then.
Sweden is OP because of Torps, they need a nerf.
apart from the fact that ppl have these ‘feelings’ that sweden is OP and there are vids about “ReaLlY Op sTratS” … which dont always work by the way… unless you are a top player and can pull off the consistency required… and rely on ppl not coming up with counters… WHERE ARE THE STATISTICS THAT WE CAN ALL SEE THAT PROVE SWEDEN IS ABSOLUTELY THE MOST OP CIV OUT THERE. i would really like to see this. and then perhaps… we can then discuss the changes necessary.
this discussion is going round in circles.
i hope the devs do not change the essence of the civ by making sweeping changes that change the character of it.
Sweden is clearly a hard-to-balance civilization because of its original (claimed to be unique
) design, and That’s definitely what the developers themselves brought it on themselves.
France, closest to vanilla, is a highly chosen civilization. Rather, civilizations must be closer to vanilla in order to balance. ‘Britain creates a settler when building a house, Spain gets transport quickly’ it is Simple and powerful - these seem similar at first glance, but it determines the identity of civilizations and, in the end, make each civilization look very different. That’s why we want this simple but unique civilization bonus for Sweden as well. It is not OP house, OP unit, a meaningless lot of many Bonus, unstoppable one-pattern strategy.
Nevertheless, I would argue that if developers want to keep their designs (which they claim to be unique), they have to give up their settler restrictions to balance out other civilizations.
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not sure that putting settler limits is going to make much difference to the complainers who to be fair are probably mostly moaning about the early/midgame.
most games do not last anywhere as long as it would take to reach settler limits
if you did that… the treaty crowd would then moan. because the eco would be so crap for treaty. the torps are useless in treaty games.
in otherwords… a settler limit would make NO ONE happy.
so its a stupid idea.
Your arguments completely ignore the fact that you can boom off the torps and reach industrial age with its powerful techs while torps are still up and about gathering food and wood. Fast industrial is a very popular sweden strategy. I wonder why…
Most sweden players stay in age2 forever because their age 2 is comparable to other civs age 4. But just like sweden players cried when Caroleans were nerfed but then discovered the leather cannon, so will it happen when your torps will be nerfed but then you will discover that you can boom.
It is pretty obvious that devs wanted torps to serve as a stepping stone for your boom, just like manors and shrines are for british and japan, not replace your entire economy. This is why they need further nerfs.
It’s very strange that the developer is considering the treaty balance in the first place. No official league rules treaties, Also any RTS.
you are contradicting yourself
first you say a very popular strat is to go to age 4 fast… then you say most stay in age 2. what is your actual point??
any civ can go to age 4 fast at the expense of no army or a limited army, sending resource cards etc… and not have many vills to sustain a big economy. a rush civ in a 1v1 will make it pretty hard to do. maybe in a team game with noobs who stay in their town and boom against you.
age 2 sweden isnt anything that special. i wouldnt stay in age 2 to fight age 4 civ!! leather cannons are good but not great until age 3 after the card to convert to infantry gun.
the torps have been nerfed enough. the food income doesnt last as long and the gold gathering rate has decreased enough that you need to put several vills on gold mines.
ppl need to stop confusing between their inability to figure out a strat for an annoying civ vs a truly OP civ …
if it was sooooo superior why isnt everyone playing it then… ppl like to lose?? or like to win??
what is your actual point.
Lol, sweden can do that while making units out of 2 barracks. This itself is a clear indicator of how overpowered Sweden is.
Because not all like lame OP civs in casual ranked matches. Go see the tournaments, where both in 1v1 and 3v3, sweden dominated and everyone agreed it is OP.
Swede players have reached top ranks when clearly their skills are lower, just because they can mass 50 units again after losing whole army.
Isn’t that the point of villagers tho? Sweden player have become so used to bad macro and vills on wood, that doing normal vill distribution feels weird to them.
Sweden is OP because you can rush, boom and turtle at the same time! It needs serious nerf.
My suggestions -
Make torps different from houses. Torps don’t give population.
Make torps cost both wood and gold. 150w 150g
Remove domininons.
Remove all berry, tree and mine cards.
Add 2 vills age 1, 4 vills and 3 vills age2, and 6 vills age 3.
Settler limit of 70 until age V.
Make sweden less reliant on torps. Japan cannot pump out units just with its shrine eco.
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Agree with it, Inca is also having overpowered economy late game because this issue, hopefully it will be adjusted in the future.
This isn’t a contradiction.
A popular strategy doesn’t make it a "most.
Moving on…
This is for every other civ except sweden. Sweden can do all these. They can boom and make units at the same time.
Except for the Carolean which has no counter in age2, the lather cannon and the obscene economy.
The food income lasts long enough to give you the edge in villagers, and the wood income will last well into the late game. The fact that you consider having to build more villagers a problem shows just how OP torps are.
Sweden needs to stop relaying on their torps and discover all the other OP things at their disposal. And this is coming from a Sweden player.
People get bored winning over and over again with the same strategies.
Other civs are more interesting to play.
Nerf torps.
Or slightly nerf the combat capabilities of sweden units
or slightly increase the cost of all sweden units.
You can’t have good economy, good units and good spam capability.
TLDR: build more villagers as Sweden, you will discover a whole new dimension of OPness.
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This. Something that people never realize.
Man, are you taking it for granted that Swedes players can just sit there and let the torps gather all the gold for you?
Most games do not run that long into the late-late-game, when torps are really depleted.
Japan has been the most hated civ to play against since TAD, even after a serious nerf on the absurd ashigaru, because the Shrines are safe and stable and require little investment.
Yeah Japan late game economy is not that impressive compared to standard 99 vl + 2 factory, but it is still very annoying in the mid-early game where most games are decided. And Sweden now is Japan with (1) a greater economic spike (2) a vil count superiority over all other civs until late-late game (3) and is even more annoying.
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I don’t know if Incas really need a nerf to their house boom since I’ve never actually seen them in action and I can’t access any match statistics. With Swedish torps and Japanese shrines, though, I am confident they do need nerfing.
With the Japanese I’ve seen a lot of comments in this thread about the weakness of their lategame eco. I don’t understand why this is the case since if you play rush, it’s a very odd thing indeed to get to the lategame. And if the Japanese eco is too weak in the lategame there’s a simple fix… either buff the existing shrine improvement research or add an additional one in Age V. (If it’s a specific problem of treaty balance, and I suspect it is since I saw someone quoting NR 40, then the solution is an additional card.) The question we are facing is entirely one of how to balance the Japanese economy in the context of Ages I to III. And the essential problem I have with it is simple: it is not raidable.
To make the Japanese economy raidable I suggest five ideas.
- make shrines much easier and more worthwhile to kill
- make shrines easier to kill and remove the ability of explorers to build them
- increase the gather rate of shrines but require that villagers are tasked to pray at them (cf temples in AoM)… meaning there will always be at least one vill to kill at a shrine
- have shrines cost fifty wood, remove their population supporting function, and give the Japanese “urban dwellings” which are two storey, narrow houses that cost 75 wood, support ten population and which can only be built near the town centre (this means other Japanese buildings can’t be, meaning their bases will be more raidable)
- have the Ashigaru and Yumi lose 15% of their current speed, which they gain back after their veteran equivalent upgrade is researched (this compromises the excessive advantage Japan has in defending its shrines due to have faster and very strong units)
Obviously you’d only try one of these ideas at once.
With Sweden my opinion may be distorted from watching Aussie Drongo videos but torps actually seem relatively balanced in terms of how easy it is for them to go down. The trouble is more that they’re too easy to replace… whenever he loses one his attitude is usually something like “no biggie; I have reserves”. In this sense, I suggest the following solutions:
- making torps cost more to build per age (which you’d compensate for by giving them additional benefits, e.g. increased line of sight, an boost to the build xp, hitpoints and a garrison function)
- giving Caroleans a negative modifier against siege units, which would force a Swedish player to macro for their other units in order to defend shrines (this negative modifier could be lost through either creating a new or modifying an existing Carolean card)
- giving the torp improvement cards “but your torps will build more slowly” effects
Based on Aussie Drongo videos, Swedes have terrible trouble with ranged cavalry units, which is only compensated for with their torp boom… which was basically restored (or even buffed) at the last major patch. It is possible that some kind of mid level between the two patches would actually fix Sweden’s balance issues but I think modifying how torps gather has proven to be too difficult to predict the results of… hence the nature of my suggestions.
I agree. Of course it should be reduced to 70.
The cost of wood of 135 rewards 200 food, and a card gives the highest income of 20,000 food.
Everything is ridiculous.
Of course,Swede is also possible to keep these and only need to remove one of the cards from the factory.
The Incas cannot bargain.
There are no factories in Japan, this should be taken into consideration.Unless teammates donate animals, it is generally unlikely to be equal to the two factories.
How can it be?
The collection efficiency of Swedish villagers is the same as that of other European countries.
Sweden has a full range of villager cards and resource cards, as well as additional economic income.
Even so, do you still lose to slow countries like China and Russia?
If you surpass them, please rest assured that you are in a safe position and only lose to the top civilizations.
I agree.Putting it in the woods is enough to harvest
It is two cards.
The Incas had to consume one card to produce three more native warriors.
The Swedes acquiesced that Saloon had three German mercenary units.
Incas are not so difficult to balance, because they cannot even reach 200 pop with their Houses, so they have to spend a lot of Wood on TCs and have no Artillery (outside of the 4 units they get on one Big Button), which more or less evens it out for the Fortress and Industrial Ages (1v1 games almost never go to the Imperial Age, and even Industrial Age is rare).
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Shrines act as Factories, and Dojos produce free units, in a more versatile way than Factories ever could.
Japan very much so has Factory equivalents, and they are better than normal Factories.
Shrines can even be rebuilt, which Factories cannot.