Or if you somehow lost map and can win through ecoing and microing properly but INCA takes all TPS and Trade monopoly as seen in this game: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/791118774
I consider both ways to be really bad for the game. And If I can do it at the current state of the game. Anyone who wants to win a big prize tourny can replicate this or even find crazier ways of abusing these 2 plays
On the Beta I had argued about making FORTS more scary for EURO civs. But after seeing INCAS FORT. I can only say this. Give this to all civs, or donāt allow only 1 civ to abuse FORTs this much. I had talked about facing an EURO FORT you can walk in front of it and not having any fear of losing your entire army. Against an INCA FORT your entire army gets wiped in seconds, Plus how accessible INCA Forts are. 350w 350c
Iām one that likes for a game to always bring new things and to change the meta, But having OP things is not fun at all. If you want to change meta do so but keep changing things as needed.
Some facts that people might not see right away.
Chimu runners canāt be snared.
600w infinite in age2 is so strong is unbelievable
Stronghold has 35 Range at max ups
Kanchas produce 1Food per second. And you can get 13 houses pretty easy early on. Which equals to 13 vills on FOOD that early. And there is no way of punishing this without losing big part of the game [ if we take japan which gets shrines. They risk having to walk on the map and built them on risky spots] INCA risks nothing to building 13 kanchas. Because of this INCA has the strongest Commerce play as they donāt run out of resources while all other civs excluding japan have to go out in the map as MIlls arenāt that good
2 Warhut from age up equals 500w and is too strong
4 Industrial cannons that can be sent in Fortress age for only 1600c is too OP and they can also be saved inside a FORT [ If you play really well. these 4 should never die]
Fort should be less scary. Or make all other FORTs in game as scary as this one
Incas literally outclassed Aztecs in every way, thereās no reason to even pick aztecs again.
As a non expert I will say, just remove the trainable Macemen and leave it in the Community Plaza and Homecity things, reduce the Chimu Runner speed and Kanchas should produce food much slower early.
You can easily hold it with MM. Just mine 150 gold in transition and you are fine. I even held a double Inca rush. Because walls. You ve got the tools, use them.
Chimus cant be snared, but they also dont snare, so vills can escape easily.
Most civs have at least 2 wood shipments - 700 and 600. +100 for those civs.
Kanchas produce food at 1 food/sec after a card. A lot of civs can have a boom spike with a specific card. I mean i.e. England get a vil for the same amount of wood/house, and guess what - it gathers the same as kancha withut the need for an extra card.
Many civs have 400 wod politician - 2 rax, almost same as 2 warhuts. Warhuts attack is ultra weak.
4 light cannons cost the same as 4 falconets, and are not (considerably) stronger. For a once per match ability kinda OKAYā¦ (agree on garroson)
Fort are kinda spiciality of inca, seen on the cards. Just like French Mega-Vil
I have to admit that Chimu in commerce age does not snare. However after Fortress having an unit snaring yours but you not being able to snare that, Do you feel it is fair?
I mean the 4 light canon would be fine if theirs had 28 range and couldnāt hide. But the fact that they can kill any cannon [ This is an Industrial unit already ]. They have 32 range and run faster than all cannons in siege mode. Makes it very strong for 1600c, Saying 4 Falconets cost the same is not fair. Have to also add that Falconets are not even close to what those 4 field gun can do in the game
Here is the difference between most civs and INCA 600w infinite. 600w infinite is the most OP commerce card per say. Because wood is the slowest resource to gather and despite most civs having 7w and 6w after those 2 were sent you need to gather. As INCA having 13 houses which never run out and an infinite 600w. Straight up gives them Most strong Commerce play. Without any counter play as they can play the starve game
INCA does not need to gather gold to switch into a 3rd unit like adding cav or pikes like aztec. All warhut units for inca are purely food/wood
Yes, its kinda fair. Good player wont get snared anyway. Mb by loosing 1 cav unit. And you hav to spend a card and 1k Gold. Considering how many more important cards there are in fortress that card will come way late in fortress. Just build walls.
Man, its a BB, has to have something sprecial. If you are so afraid of those mediocre cannons, just build 2 culvs and keep owning Inca with 2 falcs all day everyday. EZ.
Aztecs have infinite 600 gold, no one complaining about that. And also no one would send the wood card more than 3 times (I send it only once). You need unit upgrades! Thus its comparable to other civs 700w 600w 700g card options - as you can trade 700g to 600w. EZ.
Some MU inca are strong. Some MUs they are weak. But they are far from OP. Especially considering they suffer from cannons and dont have good splash dmg like said cannons. Apart from the BB. (the BBs splash is also mediocre, lets be honest)
Out of the current top 50, Everytime I encounter a good player. They never wall. They only realize walls are important after min 50+
You saw the video I posted where I abuse the FORT? What happened to all the culvs hazza threw at me? like it is so easy to just make culvs and kill those 4 mediocre cannons I recommend watching it before saying it is easy to deal against them. And the same thing happens to every player that tries to culv those 4 mediocre cannons I bait them and snipe them all the time with the garrison trick
Wood is much more important that coin. Give 600w infinite wood to aztec and youāll see how much better they become
I cant believe someone actually watches those games by Khorix and argue they are positive for the game. Its absolutely insane, breaks the game, isnt fun. some civs just cant counterā¦ and even if they could, how is this fun? its terrible for the game.
its bad even for tournaments, it will be abused in tournaments and put every series in a halt, as we wait for each played to have his one hour win with inca.
I know devs will be strongly against changes in the civ, but I honestly think is for the best. At least consider removing all kinds of militar garrison, and make chimus snare and be snared like coyotes.
Like your statement here. Me posting this is not because I ilke it but more because I want it to be fixed. And seeing a guy defending the civ is incredible. Is like he wants it to stay the current way it is
Inca has many weaknesses. i see them rarely in my last 100 1v1.
they got one of the weakest archer units (bowman has ROF of 3 and low hp/dmg!)
Actually the Bowman is worse then aenna, cetan archers, longbows even with poison.
You have to play at least the 1000 gold age 3 shipment (thats 2000 res) to make them counter their desired targets (without 2,75 multi they cant stand up caroleans or upped musketeers / janis) - for lategame you even have to play the poison upgrade card, which is rather useless against archer / skrimisher type of units. Actually a fully upped bowman has less Hitpoints then a full upgraded Strelets (which has 200+ in lategame).
Only advantage of bowman is their smaller aimtime / they can hit and run (but need speed upgrade for that). TLDR: Bowmans are trash without 2-3 extra upgrade cards would take any other archer or strelets even without cheaper units over them any day.
they got no good cannon counter, except of that one time light cannon shipment at fort ( which costs 1500 + 700 = 2200 res to counter like 5 falcs, while 2 culvs cost 60% less)
Huracas got too low range (21 vs 26 - while getting 1-2 shottet by Falcs) Even with Age 4 1500 Gold shipment they still get totally fucked by bombards / rockets etc. despite beeing their counterunit (the only range counter inca has to cannons!). They are basically a 1 hit for heavy cannons / horse cannons / bombards.
Dont belive me? Try it. Take 2 heavy cannons / bombards and 10 huracas (1000 res as counter unit) and now try to kill those 2 while they are ready to shoot. Afterwards try it with culvs - its 10 times easier cause of there range advantage and bonus dmg.
Chimus only work if your enemy is dumb or greedy, if hes good and guards his cannons right on point with his musks / goons your chimus are useless in age 2 and age 3 (age 3 ist most important in 1v1 non treaty games - because most 1v1 end there)
If you dont belive me: try it. Build 5 Falconets and 50 Ryter (Dutch) and place those ryters on stand ground RIGHT ON THE Cannons (szenario editor) now try to kill those cannons with chimus. Impossible if they are right on the cannons, you cant even click them. Ok ryters are very close to each other. Now repeat this with 50 Janissarys and 5 Falcs and try to fight this with 50 Bowman and 50 chimus. Make sure to place the jannis RIGHT on TOP of the cannons, not 2m away, not 5m away, like ON TOP of them. Chimus cant walk through jannis, if they are 50 and there is no gap, inca player will waste all his 50 Chimus. Even in age 4 with stealth he will waste them, IF you keep the explorer within that formation (chimus sneak with stealth, get detected by explorer and slaughtered by jannis - in range or melee mode, within that ājanni boxā even the 5 cannons kill a lot of chimus).
they got no good cav counter
No Goons or something similar. Their Spearman seem to be strong, but they are 120 Costs and only got 3x vs cav. Now compare with Puma Spearmen from aztec (about same basedmg but 5x vs cav and 100 ressources instead of 120!) But Aztec dont need them, since they got superior eagle runner knights and jaguar prowl knights.
So in lategame Situations vs French Curiassier / Indian Elephants or Ottoman Spahis they have to have a lot of spearmans - like 40-50+ with age 2 500g upgrade card to stand a chance. Maceman are strong but so fucking expensive - 300 res 4 speed really?
they got no musketeer like unit
Which baits them into weak bowman + expensive spears if enemy is going musk / hussar. Chimus can be used in late but are really bad for commerce age raiding, because they dont slow villagersā¦ Try it - take the 6 chimu shipment and try to kill enemy huntvills. Now take the 3 hussar or 5 cossacks or 5 uhlan shipment and kill vills again.
If the enemy isnt sleeping you will only get 1-2 vills or none until enemy gets to his tc. If you are at the same place with cossacks, uhlan or 3 hussars youre killing 3-5 vills easy if there are no spears around cause youre faster and slowing them.
And for their Boom:
Its not better then swedish torp boom (if both mainly build houses) because inca houses cost 20 more wood (135 vs 115) and need an age 2 shipment to be nearly competitive.
If you keep that inca houses for some time without the kancha houses upgrade card (because you have to defend, or rush with spears etc) you will quickly fall behind a swedish player - even if he isnt playing the torp upgrade card.
To keep up boom you have to switch to 4-5 tcs in age 3 and get 99 vills under 18/19 mins while holding off the attacks with defensive buildings / forts / 50 archers / 50 chimus trying to raid / catch his cannons.
are you playing treaty mainly? in 1v1 i rarely ever get maxpop before i win.
Most of my games end before min 20, many around min 15 (dependend on who wins the colo fight and kills the enemy villagers or tc / keeps him inside the base).
So no slowing chimus, no field cannons.
And worse: even no unit upgrades for bowman or chimus in age 2 commerce age fights.
If you remove those chimu strengs their only cannon counter in age 3 gets killed.
Because the only chance you got is running in, sniping the cannons, run out.
if they get slowed you will easily loose 30/40 chimus running into like 30+ caroleans or other muskets just to kill 2 falconets. (which are only 1k res while 30 chimus are 3k res)
And nerf all the restā¦the fast pike rush, removing light cannons to age4, hp buildings,removing all kinds of militar garrison, and make chimus snare.
Khorix is a top 10 player on the ladder right now, I think when it comes to balancing, his word is worth more than the others here and lemmings (another very strong player, top 50 I think) agrees with him.
Did you guys see the games Khorix posted? He beat top 50 players by abusing Incas unique mechanics, itās not up to debate, Incas are too strong right now.
Iām the minority here but I like Incas design, it just needs some nerfs, not a design change:
How does that stronghold cost only 350w 350g??? European Forts are MUCH weaker and are a fortress shipment(they usually are worth around 1000 resources) How Incaās strongholds are worth only 700 resources?? It should cost at least 550w 550g IMO
Donāt let cannons garrison, I think the pricing is okay, but they being able to shoot-garrison-shoot is not
The Building HP ādanceā should give less HP, now it gives 185% when the plaza is maxed, this should be reduced to 100%
Chimusā¦ Iām the minority but I like the no-snare mechanic, but they are the melee-cav replacement for Incas, they shouldnāt have ranged-cav speed, their speed should be reduced by 0.5 (base, so the speed upgrades are worth less)
One of Incaās age2 units should cost gold, their macro is WAY to easy right now(you only have to gather 2 resources for a looong time) I would change Chimus cost to 40g instead of 35w
The 500w (2 building travois that will always become warhuts) politician is too strong, they are even better than 500w crates would be since they donāt require the loss of villager seconds (to spend building stuff and collecting the crates), my suggestion is changing the politician to give 1 any-building travois + 1 kancha travois (385w - but it would be worth more than the european 400w crates for the reasons I told before, no loss of VS)
Those are my ideas for Inca nerfs. What you guys think?
Changing one of the colonial age units (chimu i think) to cost food/gold is a excellent sugestion imo. Current macro with kancha+most vills on food, a couple on wood and inf600w cards is way to strong. From the 2wh ageup building you get map control and a nice 3 unit of position, and can adjust the ratio at anytime without having to antecipate your macro.
wtf i wrote a longer answer and it timed out because topic got moved -.-
Thats not true, especially not for Teamgames. I would take Eagle Runner Knights over any Inca Unit any day. The Combination of Coyote Runner + Eagle Runner Knights is way stronger. i personally prefer the medicore arrow knights with their 30 range over huracas too. (2 pop 40 dmg is shit with 21 range, even if its siege dmg, basically an abu gun 1 age later WITH aimtime).
I even prefer Ottoman Slingers over Bowman, because in direct combat against each other they win costwise. (1,5er ROF thats 16 dmg vs 15 and slingers got 30% rangeresits).
In lategame i would bet on Aztec, their eco is better and their combat units too.
Especially with 20 warpriests dancing and 300+ pop big buttons, which kinda counter the inca big buttons
ok then khorix is better.
maybe i played them wrong.
Mostly fought in commerce age fights and found their units to be lacked.
Made a lot of all in lama age up fast tech rushing without kansha house boom too, which is easy to counter tbh. (Minute Man + Unit Shipment = gg pikes)
i think almost no one will play them anymore.
Just takes swedes and swarm them with caroleans?
or play otto, go FF / take water and outboom them with free vills?
combo: cannon / jans with some spahis mixed in.
if you want you can take tps before him or outboom him on water (shooner; 2 dock)
You dont have to kill his forts before age 4 with great bombards and cheaper jannis.
I understand that Bowman may seem weak. But they are very strong. Check this one: Twitch
In this video I play against Kevin, decent player. he is Swedes and Iām INCA.
Aztecs can only have 99 vills and 10 priest dancing. While inca can have 99 vills, 10 priest dancing 13 houses producing 1 food per sec and 20 estates producing 20 gold per second. And a Fort that is scary as hell. Aztec doesnāt even have a single unit to touch the Fort which has 35 range and is the scariest Defensive building in the game. To all this you have to add that INCA has kalankas. This building allows you to hide your troops whenever you desire and they cost no POP while being hidden in the kalankas Which you may unhide after you get max pop 200/200 and get over pop with them.
Also 1k2 wood infinite in age 4 is superior to 1kcoin infinite. As these civs lack wood. [ Wood is the superior resource in this game ]
Also, caros are currently super strong, most civs have nothing that beats them, so its expected that incan bowmans arent great vs caro. (its also expected a caro nerf soon)
I watched the first video. the alleged āabuseā happens at 23min+. The real problem isnāt cannons and units micro which were very lame but the 33K+ HP ON THE DAMN FORTSā¦; That is broken and should be fixed AND it could be lamer if khorix sent the card that gives all buildings 35%+ more hpā¦
Also on that map hazza had the shoreline and was in age 4 why he didnt have 2 mortars??? and it took him too long to figure out having land mortars upfront culv behind them and land army/ regular cannons behind the culv. That combo would force khorix out of his fort faster.
FURTHERMORE lonnnnnng after the cannons were dead the HP ABUSE CONTINUED 44+MIN into the game; when 5 mortars full unction canāt even reduce the HP of the forts to half after having like 5 volleys??? I donāt think thatās a āOP cannonā issue.
The 4 field gun arenāt op in the open field. You can easily pick them up or use culvs. The op thing about them is that youāre able to Garrison in the FORT. even Hazza was streaming and he said he doesnāt know what to do vs that. I donāt know what to do vs it either.
