Iroquois - Early Alpha Stage

[platypus_slayer1]

Ah man juan do I need to play some haude games vs you and show how haude works?

@JuanTheHunter

The cassadors will destroy them. face to face. That’s all you need to know about FP.

Cass are good age3 skirms. As a haude player, you will require apm to pin portugal back in its base and use kh/fp and map control to contain ports and use your better tempo to win. Harder thanks to 10/10 but same game plan. Take tps, water, pressure and never let port mass. A sneaky age4 usually gives you a solid hurrah then if fail just type gg and move on.

@JuanTheHunter

That is exactly what I said.

No, nor are you understanding. The base damage of a fp is slightly higher than a skirms without any upgrades. Their hp is less but with warchief becomes essentially the same. IF YOU LOSE WARCHIEF STUPIDLY, YOU LOSE GAME. WELCOME TO TWC. So yes its always to be considered because thats how the civ is supposed.to work

@JuanTheHunter

Iroquois Plaza does not make any economic improvements.

Yes and no. First off xp is an eco of its own and if you age2 with 2vill 1 healer you can have a mini tp in base. Late game the xp trickle is key to unlocking inf1500 crates which with 8 vills is faster gathering for a bit. Also unlocking pop space helps with big pushes. But generally haude is not an eco civ, and plaza is key for boosting military. You clearly have not put 25 vills on a imperial plaza and seen what attack dance does

@JuanTheHunter

So even at age 5, Iroquois soldiers are still weaker,

Broh please go send 4 infantry cards warchief, and age to 5 and stick just 25 vills set plaza to attack dance and tell me what the stats of a FP. Learn to play a civ before making judgements like its weaker i dont even know what to say about thinking fps arent the goat skirm age5 tbh

[Ekdal1378]

Oh, then I was in drugs after having won several times on treaty (nr40 and 60) on
Orinoco, Andes, Upper Andes, Deccan, Mexico or Dakota

Orinoco nowadays is not the nr55 we had in TAD back then.

[Pine_Cultist]

@platypus_slayer1

You clearly have not put 25 vills on a imperial plaza and seen what attack dance does

I put 10 priests +35% upgrade +15 villagers. And you know what? 60 damage from a fully upgraded age 5 musketeer does not impress me. As well as his 389 hp under the chief.
What I’m trying to explain to you is that with 5 cards and a plaza, the Iroquois infantry becomes equivalent to the European infantry with 4 cards and no plaza. That is, if you switch the plaza from the war ceremony for even 1 minute - YOU LOSE. No options. The Iroquois only get hemorrhoids from a more serviceable game for them and no advantage.

[platypus_slayer1]

Before I spend more time, are we off prowler = bad skirm? Because if so I can dig a bit deeper for you on how tomos are not an s tier musk but do their job (early rush, late game bubble wrap stuff from cav) decently. But if you just move from subject to subject hard to explain things.

[Pine_Cultist]

We didn’t deviate, I just don’t remember the Prowler’s stats because I don’t build it, unlike the Tomahawk. But I’ll be thrilled to check it out right now, wait, I’ll show you some pretty pictures.

[platypus_slayer1]

Juan, why are you not making them (FP)? Do you play ports avoid dragoon and complain their cav is bad?

I do look forward to these pictures of tomos, and remember to get all the boosts. Included lacrosse and warchief. And arsenal tech (new ways) it will matter.

[Loni]

1. Imperial Tomos
2. Imperial Tomos + Cards, Chief Aura & Lacrosse
3. Imperial Tomos + Cards, Chief Aura, Lacrosse & Plaza Boost (15 vills and 10 Shamans with medicine wheel card)
   PS: Tomos don’t benefit from any arsenal tech you get from “New Ways”

[platypus_slayer1]

Ahh i always forget they took away bayonet
Bastards

[platypus_slayer1]

Anyways for the stats solid musk
Early on easy to mass late game decent. Extra range is a huge deal and hp helps protect light cannon from cav. I know wood sucks late late game but its kind of nice mid game when coin runs out.

Solid stats. 60attack and high hp and same melee (srsly if hoops can be rifled why no bayonet musk melee is not a big deal) as most musk. Solid unit wheres the complaint?

[Pine_Cultist]

@platypus_slayer1

But if you just move from subject to subject hard to explain things.

First, let’s define it. This topic is about the Iroquois. I’m not jumping from topic to topic.

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Second, look at the pictures. For comparison, I specifically took a nation that is addicted to aura and whose infantry is not its main feature.

As you can see with all the dancing around the idol, their soldiers are equivalent. How are you going to kite guys who run 0.6 faster than your so called kiters?) Your opponent will just press Ctrl+Z and shoot them all to hell.
Only the crossbowman is weaker, but he is also cheaper and can be built instantly.

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Now let’s see how much investment is needed to achieve this effect.

Three fewershipments to achieve the same effect = more deck space.
I will once again specifically emphasize the topic that you avoid - they are not stronger. They are equal with all the Iroquois debuffs.

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Thirdly, let’s compare what kind of economy provides for the production of these infantrymen.

Edited: Ah i fogot TAVERN.
It looks wierd. The Iroquois have no chance of winning. I mean, absolutely no chance. All they can do is smear themselves with mantles, which are easily countered by hand cavalry and cannons.

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Whatever you tell me, they are losing in all positions. This nation is in a state of “work in progress”. And the developers continue to nerf them - this is madness. I remind you again that in the late game you physically do not have time to jerk off buttons on the plaza, because every second without a war ceremony = your entire army gets a debuff -1 to AGE.

[platypus_slayer1]

@JuanTheHunter

late game you physically do not have time to jerk off buttons on the plaza

this…just pick a different phrase.. And yes you do. Hotkeys. Late game should be constant switch fertility, overpop, then attack dance. Xp if passive. Thats haude. Lots of apm. Eco wise haude either goes hard early or cow booms. No.p

So youll note
-fp stronger than other skirms

• tomo right up there, more hp less ranged more hand attack.
  –15 vills? And whats the max overpop of.plaza again? Your army should always be bigger of the above strong units. Thats your eco, murder. Youre not an attrition civ youre a crush big fights over and over till gg civ.
• eco you clearly are comparing treaty cards so ill just say: haudes cards sans cav are very flexible. Its easy to make space for even 4x cards to upgrade infantry in 1v1. As for treaty, listen. Come close. Closer till my lips touch your ears…

FUR TRADE! STOP PLAYING 4HRS GAMES. FUR TRADE APM COWS AND PLAZA MAX POP AND UNITS AND FIGHT TO WIN. OR DONT USE HANDS FAST AND LOSE.

Now if your point is that haudes inaccessible for most thats fair. It remains a low played civ that’s both unforgiving and for many not exciting. Hell even fast fort with haude is tricky thanks to the 800 crate macro. But if you thinking its weak not true.

[Kingfisher1787]

@JuanTheHunter

Thirdly, let’s compare what kind of economy provides for the production of these infantrymen.

It looks wierd. The Iroquois have no chance of winning. I mean, absolutely no chance.

Just a point here: Farms are stationary collection. What must be kept in mind is that Settlers on mills aren’t gathering when moving (thus the higher rate when actually collecting).

Also, even while imperfect, you do have a livestock boom and then Fur Trade. After age 5 it’d be all vills on food, with 5-10 eating cows and sheep at 8 food per sec (btw, the faster food rate card means less vills are needed eating the cows and more can gather at the farms).

I’m not saying their ecos are equal, Spain will have an advantage if the game goes long enough, but they have to catch your fur trade boom first. Also, as @platypus_slayer1 said, you have over an extra 25pop. There’s an interesting thing called Lanchester’s Law, which (basically) says in combat between ranged units, each additional unit added causes a non-linear increase (ie, 125 pop is over 25% better than 100 pop). I’m not great at math, I’d be unable to easily explain why Lanchester’s law works, I just know it does.

Treaty Huad is a really hard civ to play, but very strong if you have the skill to pull it off. Personally, it’s not one of my treaty mains, it’s a lot of work to play well.

[coffeeco01]

yeah it has to be noted

farms, mills , rice paddy and fields(with granary) are equivalent net food rate due to walking time on mills.

if you are using the UI to say that euro has more eco you are in for a rude surprise

@JuanTheHunter

As you can see with all the dancing around the idol, their soldiers are equivalent. How are you going to kite guys who run 0.6 faster than your so called kiters?) Yo

using spain is a very bad comparison for a obvious reason.

why would you bother kiting?

they have significantly less hp then the haud units since unction only buffs attacks

you just stand there with your greater pop cap and kill them.

you also have more range so they have to come to you

[AnaWinters]

90% of this argument just comes down to the fact that the two Tortuamerican civs get absolutely lambasted because their economies are being fudged by either absurd numbers (Lakota) or are just outright bad (Hauds).

They need a baseline rework to give them common ground that’ll make both easier to tweak and balance, and to pull off forcing them to rely on the Plaza by removing it entirely.

[coffeeco01]

@AnaWinters

90% of this argument just comes down to the fact that the two Tortuamerican civs get absolutely lambasted because their economies are being fudged by either absurd numbers (Lakota) or are just outright bad (Hauds).

saying its haud’s eco is outright bad requires ignoring an entire game mechanic (the cows) and while we can argue on whether such an apm and micro intensive mechanic is good for the game, it has to be acknowledged that if you can pull it off, it is the most insane thing in the game .

same with the plaza. is it good game design that you have to constantly be switching between the modes to max out all the bonuses? arguably not and its annoying. if you can is it strong? hell yeah you get essentially a 231 pop civ that trains fast, get like 30% bonus to damage and also good early shipment growth, euro civs dreams of such thing.

and even haud’s farm eco is only missing 10% compared to the other cow civ (brit) and if you were to give them something like maybe native american allies card with access to the lenape native, their farm eco would be the same as maxed out otto/russia and port which are amongst the best amongst euro civs

edit: like one thing i have never noticed about haud cow eco is that their farm imp tech also increases livestock rate by another 50% in addition to stockyards so their livestock rates are probably fastest in the game, faster then the brits one

[IvanZvania]

Se supone que está civilización no está pensada para enfocarse en la ganadería como los africanos. Su fuerte según los últimos cambios son los bosques y la madera, aún le falta pulir este enfoque por parte de los desarrolladores. Siento que su edificio único, la casa comunal, debería recibir un bonus . Podría generar madera pasivamente entre más árboles le rodean o quizá lo mejor es que genere árboles al construirse. Los travois podrían convertirse en cofres de madera.
La pesca es deprimente, tanto lakotas como Haudeenosaunee les falta un envío de pesca de segunda.
El acceso a forajidos es interesante pero no poseen el envío de teatros. Hay que ponernos creativos y buscar un modo de aplicarlo, quizá construyendo una embajada nativa dentro del área de visión de un puesto comercial para reducir su costo de población.
No me canso de decirlo, el mantelete necesita la habilidad de evasión.

[Pine_Cultist]

@platypus_slayer1

Anyways for the stats solid musk

@platypus_slayer1

this…just pick a different phrase… And yes you do. Hotkeys. Late game should be constant switch fertility, overpop, then attack dance. Xp if passive.

@platypus_slayer1

PLAZA MAX POP

You don’t hear me. This is what an Iroque army looks like when you turn off the war ceremony and your chief is sniped by horse guns. It is impossible to turn off the plaza during the assault on the enemy base and use overpop.

@platypus_slayer1

But if you thinking its weak not true.

Yeah. Fighting falconets + musk without culverins is just a fairy tale.

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@platypus_slayer1

FUR TRADE! STOP PLAYING 4HRS GAMES. FUR TRADE APM COWS AND PLAZA MAX POP AND UNITS AND FIGHT TO WIN. OR DONT USE HANDS FAST AND LOSE.

Actually all treaty games on Iroquois I win. 100% winrate in treaty. Mantlets work like USA New York Zouve card.
They are absolutely unbeatable. Also, I get a full deck before all my opponents, when I have 25 cards sent - they only have 14. Also, I start the battle with a population of 275 (109 vills working 25 minutes) and I demolish the entire forward base and capture ALL the natives on the map. No enemy has a chance. The reduced population cost of the Culverir deprives the enemy of the chance to use each cannon for more than one shot. The fur trade completely eliminates the need to mine gold for the next 2 hours of the game. This is generally the strongest nation for Treaty that I have played (well, after Mexico). Here is my treaty stat:

But again. Mantles and only mantles pull the whole game. If you don’t build mathlets - the statistics that I gave need to be turned upside down.
All my complaints are about supremacy. This nation is impossible to use in classic mode, because you will not have enough resources to get 237 population and replenish the mass of mantles in time. It is simply impossible.

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@platypus_slayer1

COWS

@Kingfisher1787

livestock boom

Cow boom is not possible in supremacy. Restructuring the economy to produce livestock stops food production for 10 minutes.

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Their cavalry, by the way, is also complete shit.

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@Kingfisher1787

Just a point here: Farms are stationary collection.

Okey. You win! I gather food from 1 mill with 10 settlers for 5 min. It wasn’t obvious to me because the two settler movement speed upgrades for Italy didn’t boost their economy enough to be noticeable even in Treaty.


However, statistics are relentless. How can you explain this?

@JuanTheHunter

But after running the scenario in the post-imperial age, I found a bug. The Iroquois were getting food on farms at a speed of 1.35 instead of 1.1. This is some kind of cut shadowtech that is not in the regular game. Which once again proves that the Iroquois are a buggy early alpha, and not a full-prepared nation.

@Kingfisher1787

125 pop is over 25% better than 100 pop
Lanchester’s law

Yeah, I know that. Mexico constantly removes all settlers in Treaty and abuses this feature through barbecue and gold for kills. Technically, the Iroquois can also limit the cow boom of the fur trade, remove all the villagers and have the most horryfying overpop in the game. The problem is again that you can’t turn off the war ceremony. Because your warriors are weak like the Russians, but cost the same as the Europeans.

@coffeeco01

edit: like one thing i have never noticed about haud cow eco is that their farm imp tech also increases livestock rate by another 50% in addition to stockyards so their livestock rates are probably fastest in the game, faster then the brits one

The cow boom does not work in the supremacy. It’s also worth noting, how bad is it to increase food production on your allies’ farms in a team game?

[Pine_Cultist]

These juicy cards, as well as the reconnaissance of all TPs at the beginning of the game, clearly hint to us that Iroque MUST use natives. They do not fight solo. This is also worth remembering.

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At the same time, they are buggy, they lack any concept of development. Why the hell do they need so many cards for village production?

The developers do not understand the path the nation should take to develop.

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A bunch of junk shipments.

First of all, who needs a TC boost if it’s not the Portuguese? Who needs shooting from houses with 10 damage and a musketeer’s range? (There are only 14 houses, they were supposed to perform some function, but they don’t). Under what circumstances would I press the house shooting ceremony button on the plaza instead of the war ceremony? This is absurd.

Why should I pay gold for 10 weak mantles when I can get 7 strong ones for free?

Who at age 3-4 might need supplies of age 1 units? Why should I fill my entire team with scouts if my chief can produce them from himself from the very beginning of the game. Why should the chief produce scouts if they cost population and resources, why upgrade them if there is nowhere to use them? Scouts only work for the Aztecs (they are not worth the population) and the Incas (they are very good fighters).

Why do I need 400% wood if enemies and allies will cut it all down anyway? Why do I need to convert the cost of all units from infinite gold to finite wood? Why do I need deer if I have chests? Why would I waste a whole slot to get 0.01 gold for cutting down trees and 0.15 for harvesting sheep? Remember that livestock cards increase the speed of food collection, but not gold. So this card is useless! Insanity.

Chieftain’s Aura now increases buildings’ HP by 10%??? Why? Spend slots on free upgrades of economic buildings? Maybe I’ll just take more chests and use these resources according to the situation?

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Conclusion: the developers threw in a bunch of crap without any concept or testing for the possibility of using it in practice. They themselves do not know what this nation should look like.

[coffeeco01]

@JuanTheHunter

But after running the scenario in the post-imperial age, I found a bug. The Iroquois were getting food on farms at a speed of 1.35 instead of 1.1. This is some kind of cut shadowtech that is not in the regular game. Which once again proves that the Iroquois are a buggy early alpha, and not a full-prepared nation.

thats not in iro bug, thats just a bug with the post-industrial tech for the native civs cause it apparently actives both the imp native tech and the euro version giving all of them +50% rate

so dont ever play post-industrial against aztecs i guess

@JuanTheHunter

The cow boom does not work in the supremacy. It’s also worth noting, how bad is it to increase food production on your allies’ farms in a team game?

But cow play still works on livestock maps, its an old opening of haud to just use the starting travois on a farm, get like 10 cows and that is enough for the boom

does it play differently then the treaty version it sure does but it still works

And if giving all your allies an extra 10% food rate is bad, again we have a different problem with your way of thinking

They also have a good water opening due to that travois, so much so it had to be nerfed twice

[platypus_slayer1]

Wait this is supremacy? Do you not read? Everyone is saying you cant attrition. That includes supremacy. Haude MUST take map and close games out. Stop playing a civ wrong and complaining. Your civ is designed to crush big fights not grind. Are you not understanding this? Clearly. Your scenarios ignore the fundamentals.

Some more tips should a person with a brain read this and wonder how does haude works

@JuanTheHunter

Fighting falconets + musk without culverins is just a fairy tale.

1 rush. Rush before they get falcs. 2. Your cav has higher multipliers vs cannon. Make your tanky goon (expensive tho)or ship kanya and try and use micro to dive. Learn to split. 3 warchief hp boost significantly helps vs splash. A mass of haude units will tank 2 falc ok. 4 go to age4 and assuming you have micro unleash light cannon. All these options require micro and game sense. None are easy. Also otto spain usa all bad matchups but you can time or ff yourself and micro hard. Winnable but cant make errors. Vs other civs you should be already keeping them idled or mass small.

@JuanTheHunter

Their cavalry, by the way, is also complete shit.

No, expensive but no. Kanya are tanky but low melee. What does FP need? Fast blocking. Musket riders are a bit overpriced imho but very good goon. The hp again is key. I dont know why your not good enough to keep warchief alive but especially ranged units should be easy enough to keep within his aura. Learn to control group.

@JuanTheHunter

The cow boom does not work in the supremacy.

Not only is farm start part of the quickest rush (14 vs 15 age up) but there are maps with cows. An extra 500 to 1k food is a huge difference in warly game pressure

As for the cards, i cba to.go through them all but you selected obvious team cards and treaty cards as if it was meant for 1v1 sup. Ofc not. Some cards are flavor like every civ has. Your deck should for land look like the below

There are 2 card slots not filled, do w/e with them. 1x age3 1x age4. You should swap conservative tactics for new ways vs otto mexico(CIR) or games where your cav and goon are key. Also can take out the age1 wood card but given our wood cost units best we got. Vs turtle civs ill swap it for age3 wood techs because youll need mass kanya and buildings.

There. That deck maximize units you need to either rush or fast fort or even age4. With a bit of flexibility.