Italy General Discussion

yea right but the question is wrong is too much simple. should be more accurate

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I believe that it’s intention was to evaluate the feeling that people have with the civ, if it’s too strong or too weak in general…

It wasn’t a question about what Italy needs in specific contexts, but more about what is your perception when playing the civ.

I personally believe that it’s mostly a balanced civ, it just needs some tweaks, but more to incentive players to use its unique units, buildings, bonuses and such.

my feeling is that i dont understand why units that i train in the basilica i cant not train in the barracks

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Because they are extremely powerful, so it’s a way to balance them… a bit like the sipahi, which are extremely powerful but not spammable.

It’s simply a matter of having coordinates with regular shipments, which is hard especially in the age 2 and early age 3.

I don’t think these will happen but I would like to see the removal of the capitalism card because it is a boring opening. That’s it, that’s the reason. Other than that it would be nice if advanced politicians was buffed for age 2, specifically 500 to 600 food, 2 lombards and 1 settler instead of 2 settler 1 lombard, and from 50 to 100 gold. Mostly the gold one because 50 gold bonus from a card is like nothing; less than a treasure. Maybe double outpost was too strong but 50 gold means the age-up time bonus has to be worth 250 resources for it to be the equivalent to an age 1 shipment. Of course it pays for itself when you age, but that’s an IF.

Also I’m not sure about treaty or team games but rarely do I see more than 1 or 2 architect, so maybe the gold or build time could be lowered, or the card for them changed to age 2 with a lesser effect.

I watched some pro games and they seem to like to play industrial because of the powerful artillery +bourbon shipments and the bersagliere shadowteching. It probably doesn’t help that pavisier(and pike) still don’t have guard upgrades, moreover their high wood cost and clunky animation along with the schiavoni do not really help to pressure in age2, not to mention many unique cards like uffizi are geared towards eco.

That said, italy has a pretty strong atp, I think just slightly weaker than ports, because they can age up overpopped with higher vil count, naturally getting gangsaw, research stagecoach earlier, and of course have the tp booster card. But I think all of that is still worth less than 2nd tc + 400w. You can also play native on the right map, or even outlaws on africa with capitalism + 3 tavern.

Overall they could use a qol change here or there but I don’t think they’re weak, just streamlined a little into industrial or map dependent playstyles in 1v1.


saben… creo que la mejor forma de llevar la basílica es que los envíos si se demoren lo mismo que un envió, pero que tengan su propia linea de entrenamiento dentro de la basílica, me explico, lo mismo que cuando entrenas en bloque a la infantería rusa (claro que abría que ajustarlo con un poco más de tiempo de entrenamiento o algo así.

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It’s actually 750 food if I’m not mistaken, so it’s not that bad, maybe the best Italy age up.

With advanced politicians you get 300 gold, so 100 more gold, it could be even 400 though onestly…

Actually, the pike can be upgraded to imperial pike, along with the halb, and Italians halbs are actually quite strong.

The problem is the pavisiers, they lack the guard upgrade but have an HC shipment that substitute that. The problem are their base stats in my opinion, they aren’t that tanky and their different stances abilities aren’t that good.

Since that card doesn’t give the TP wagon anymore it is a bit useless in my opinion…
But if you don’t like capitalism you can easily substitute it with the maritime republics.

Yeah but they are really slow to age up, and they are vulnerable to rush.

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yes, you are right, but they are extremly costly , and there are units that is more powerfull like indians elephants with artillery mounted.

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they can be overpoped which is something other units cant do

what are you trying to meaning with overpoping? i dont understand the population max remain the same there could be some bugs like was with example the hungary revolution , but it been corrected.

Changes needed for Italy in my opinion:

NOTE: Not all of those changes have to be implemented, but each unit or aspect listed here should get at least 1 or 2 of the changes listed here. In particular the priorities should be the early eco, the pavisier and the bersaglieri. Also all the changes to the HC cards are worth in my opinion.


  • Heavy Paveses card gives +15% more HP instead of +10% HP.
  • Pavisiers when in staggered mode they maintain 15% ranged resistance along with 20% siege resistance, but move 25% slower
  • They take half the time to change stances
  • Roman Tactics card changed into a flat +15% buff on attack and HP for pikes and halbs and +30% for pavisiers. The units get more resistance when fighting together (+5% for each kind of unit for halbs, pikes and pavisiers).

Description: pavisiers are quite weak, their different stances aren’t used, and the extra wood cost doesn’t incourage its use, especially since they don’t have the guard upgrade.


  • Crimean expedition is a new card, it allows you to either:
  • train bersaglieri in age 3 (but lose the automatic guard upgrade)
  • Ships 8 bersaglieri and bersaglieri train in 15% less time.

Description: bersaglieri are a good unit, but it’s too hard to mass, this would help them to be used more.


  • Training time reduced to 25 sec instead of 35.

Galilean Mortars

  • When upgraded gain the ability to target any kind of unit, on top of the stats buff.


  • The halberdier become the new royal guard unit called Arsenalotti which gain an additional +10% speed.


  • Eco techs are 20% cheaper.


  • Advanced Market is removed from the HC and its being given for free automatically (+20% buying/selling rates).

Description: Italy eco is slow to get going, especially because you struggle to afford hunting dogs and steel traps, this would help in this direction, by allowing you to only sell 200 food, or by mining less gold.


  • Town Watch cost 100 food instead of 200 food.
  • A new age 4 technology called Artisans ships you a second factory but double the training time for papal bombards. It needs the Statuto Albertino HC card.
    NOTE: this isn’t as necessary if they get an auto-investment mechanism for lombards.
  • Risorgimento gives you a revolutionary for each unit (not just settler) lost.
  • Carabinieri effect buffed to +15% and it ships 10 guard carabiner cavalry.
  • Priest, spies shipments takes 30 sec, papal guard shipments 40 sec and schiavoni takes 45 sec, instead of 60 sec. Papal lancers and papal zuaves takes still 60 seconds.

Mercenary Companies:
New company available for the age 2:

  • Swiss Company: ships 7 papal guards and 2 swiss pikeman

HC Cards:

  • Maritime Republics cards gives you 35% of the resources already received (from 25%).
  • Venetian Arsenal also unlock the advanced arsenal techs in age 2.
  • Usury card effect extended extended for all resources.
  • Advanced Lombards allows you to to select 1 resource that can be slowly trickle inside the lombards. This deactivate any other manual investment while active.
    NOTE: this isn’t as necessary if Italy receive a second factory.
  • University of Bologna: ships an university wagon that build a university (act like a basilica for xp generation and building speed). Inside you can ship economic units, like architects and surgeons.


  • It allows lombards to train Architects and surgeons.

But papal units are really good, and have the deflection ability, so basically any other units it’s like it have a 25% resistance from all attacks, and in general they are really good units.

He means that if you have even 1 pop space you can send a basilica shipment and get 7 papal guard for example.

ah beh for more with 7 units over the enemy…

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1 thing that i forgot the most ancients banks since italy nothing about holland or dutch civ , remove the meme tank and replace it with siena and genoa hc to use some banks as dutch civ

Elenco delle banche più vecchie in funzione continua - Wikipedia

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The Republic of Venice, sometimes mistakenly credited with the creation of a Banca di Venezia in the 12th century, did not formally create a public bank until 1587. However in the 13th and 14th centuries its Grain Office did banking which included both deposits and loans. The Republic’s transferable public debt system has also been identified as an important contributor to the development of the banking sector.

In the mid-13th century, groups of Italian Christians, particularly the Cahorsin and the Lombards, invented legal loopholes to circumvent the prohibition of Christian usury; for example, one method of making a loan with interest was to offer money without interest, but also to require that the loan be insured against possible losses or prejudices and / or delays in repayment (see contractum trinius). [139] Christians who used these legal loopholes became known as the pope’s usurers and reduced the importance of Jews to European monarchs. Later in the Middle Ages, a distinction developed between things that were consumable (such as food and fuel) and those that were not, with usury allowed on loans involving the latter.

Coat of arms for the Medici family
The most powerful banking families came from Florence, including the Acciaiuoli, the Mozzi, the Bardi and Peruzzi families, who established branches in many other parts of Europe. Probably the most famous Italian bank was the Medici bank, established by Giovanni di Bicci de 'Medici in 1397 and continued until 1494. (Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena S.p.A. (BMPS) Italy, it is in fact the oldest banking organization to have surviving banking operations or services).

In the late Middle Ages, Christian merchants who lent money with interest were without opposition, and Jews lost their privileged position as money lenders. [139] Italian bankers would take their place, and by 1327, Avignon had 43 branches of Italian banking houses. In 1347, Edward III of England defaulted on loans. Later there was the failure of the Bardi (1343 ) and the Peruzzi (1346 [140]). The growth that accompanies the Italian banking system in France was the beginning of the Lombard money changers in Europe, which moved from city to city along the busy pilgrimage routes important for trade. The key cities in this period were Cahors, the birthplace of Pope John XXII, and Figeac.

Of wear, from Brant’s Stultifera Navis (the ship of fools); woodcut attributed to Albrecht Dürer
After 1400, the political forces somehow revolted against the methods of the Italian bankers of free enterprise. In 1401 King Martin I of Aragon had some of these bankers expelled. In 1403, Henry IV of England forbade them to take profits in any way in his reign. In 1409, Flanders imprisoned and then expelled the Genoese bankers. In 1410, all Italian merchants were expelled from Paris. In 1407, the Banca di San Giorgio, [142] the first state depository bank, was founded in Genoa and was to dominate business in the Mediterranean.

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The lombards represents the renaissance Italian bank sistem, and the HC coins shipment inside the lombards represents the forced loans sistem.

The monte vecchio, a bank/pawn mechanism was present before 1500, and the state mint basically acted like a bank even before.

Which is present in the lombard building.

Damn I got a lot of things wrong haha

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It’s understandable, especially the imp pike since it’s not common at all to have imp upgrade without the royal guard upgrade.

However don’t feel bad, until a week ago I thought that the advanced politicians card increases the rewards only for the next age up, not for all of them.

so for give more fast echo for italians just add more resources to lombards in the hcards and start the transition not from 300 but example from 100 to give an little boost

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You actually already get a ton of resources with HC card, because you have to consider that coins are exchange with a 1.5 ratio.

So in age 2 it’s actually 875 resources, in age 3 it’s 1875, and in age 4 it’s 3750, for comparison, you usually get shipment of 700 crates of resources in age 2, of 1000 resources in age 3 and of 1600 in age 4.

The downside is that you get those resources slower, but in the late game with a lot of lombards and the advanced lombard card it’s not a problem anymore.

What do you mean? Can you bring an example?