Italy General Discussion

[DoctBaghi]

@ITtabarelli

wait calm with the interest, (reals) and i got 150 plus interest every time ( yes i know that i could send an personal message dear microsoft but the problem is a thread that i think is only generating confusion and lost time)

Ok I didn’t understand what are you trying to say here…

@ITtabarelli

if i give a loan of one resources the tax of interest must return (1 resource full or 2 half depends like resource/s you need.

And I’m not sure what you are saying here either onestly…

Are you suggesting that the resources invested should give back +5% interest?

I’m personally not against it, but it has to be said that the lombards are already quite good as they are now, especially because they allow you to exchange resources at a 1:1 ratio. That’s something that no other civ can do in the game.

@ITtabarelli

and for last for the xp i remember that are not them that change the game because your pocket contain only 25 cards and them remain , so better have more resources to advance your economy with autonomy that to be under the hc cards that could be a débâcle , if you can have a good eco with no use hc , this is the point , with the best structure as possible already organised like it should

More XPs means that you will be able to send those 25 cards way faster than others. It means that you can send more soldiers or more resources and in general you’ll have shipments earlier and more constantly than most other civilizations.

Also, this is a secondary effect of them converting resources, so you’ll get resources and XPs. For example, if I send the monte di pietà card, I’ll get food, wood and XPs, 3 resources with 1 shipment.

Lastly, Italy have an 8% deficit in XP for getting the shipments, so lombards and basilicas more than compensate that.

@ITtabarelli

never seen in the history a lombard that have to ask to put in is bank an tax of interest) those usure card is a meme… and also an historical big fake…

The fact that it’s only available in age 4 is for balance purposes, and that usury usually develop after the economic sistem slowly develop is a normal thing, so I really don’t see the big historical fake…

[DoctBaghi]

August Update – Build # 100.13.16662.0
[…]
Crabat: Adjusted as follows
Ranged armor reduced to 15% (from 25%)
Ranged attack decreased to 30 (from 43)
Melee Cavalry damage multiplier reduced to 3.x (from 4.5x); Shock Infantry damage multiplier adjusted accordingly to 2.25x
[…]
Town Watch: Unit LOS improvement increased to +3 (from 2); cost reduced to 150 food (from 200)
Gas Lighting: Cost reduced to 75f (from 100)
[…]
ITALIANS
CIVILIZATION
Shipments: XP cost penalty reduced to 1.05x (from 1.08x)
UNITS AND BUILDINGS
Architect: Adjusted as follows:
Coin cost reduced to 170 (from 200); bounties adjusted accordingly
Training time improved to 25 seconds (from 35)
Now constructs Lombards in 100 seconds (down from 120)
Lombard: Investments now deposit 250 resources (down from 300); investment cap increased to 5000 (from 3000).
CARDS
7 Pavisiers (II): Increased to 8
Team House of Savoy (III): This card is no longer infinite
[NEW] Native Warriors (III): Added to homecity
25 Bourbon Allies (IV): This card no longer activates the Guard upgrade for these units (also affects the Maltese civilization).

This is the changes that affects the Italians in the newest pup.

So, here are my opinions about it…

Italy general eco has been buffed quite a bit…

Their XP penalty has been reduced a bit, probably to compensate some of their military nerf.

The LoS church upgrades cost is reduced by a total of +75 food, so it’s easier to afford them and to get those 2 vills, even if you still have to pay 25 food more, a small buff for their mid game.

The architect was buffed massively, it train as fast as a vill, and cost 30 gold less, but most importantly they take 20 seconds less to build a lombard.

Lombards cap have been increased again to 5000, and the investment has been reduced to 250, so you get 125 of both other resources… this is the weirdest change, it onestly does very little, but you can at least build them faster with the architect, I still don’t know if it what the building really needs…

As for their military, that on the contrary got quite a big hit…

They now get an extra pavisier in age 2, which is nice, but other civs already get 8 xbows, and the pavisier still have their problems…

But the good news stop here… the crabats were heavily nerfed, and the bourbon allies card now doesn’t grant the guard upgrade anymore.

Now, probably both nerfs were actually needed, but they didn’t come with none compensation buffs for their standard units that instead are suffering.

We will see how such changes affects the game in the following days I suppose… I’ll adjust my post about the balance changes needed accordingly though…

Economy:

The eco got overall a good buff, but there are still some things that need to be fixed in my opinion:

• Eco techs are 20% cheaper
• Maritime Republics card now gives you 35% of the resources that you already got through TPs (buffed from 25%)
• Usury card now affect all resources investments
  General:
• Mission Fervor cost reduced to 100 food and 100 wood (from 125 food and 125 wood)

I previously suggested that they should get cheaper techs, but at least now they get 2 cheaper techs, which partially helps you. Better markets also means that you need to sell just 200 food or 100 wood and mine (or get from treasures) just 35 gold to get steel traps, which is what Italy struggle the most in my opinion.

Military:

• Pavisier change stances faster (at least in half the time)
• Pavisier get guard and imperial upgrades (not royal guard)
• Roman Tactics nerfed and now gives a flat +15% HP to pavisiers (nerfed from +30%)
• Venetian Arsenal now also unlock the advanced arsenal techs like the Milanese Arsenal.
• Galilean Mortars can target any unit
• Papal guards and schiavoni now takes only 45 seconds

There are others that I would like to see, but for now those take priority in my opinion…

[OriginalKnot717]

Why does italy even have an xp penalty for shipments, you don’t get anything extra. They should have buffed the resources the lombards generate by like 10% currently it takes too long for a lombard to even pay for itself let alone generate any significant income.

[DoctBaghi]

@OriginalKnot717

Why does italy even have an xp penalty for shipments

Because you can get up to 3 churches that also generate 1 XP/s, on top of another 2.5XP/s from lombards.

For comparison, a standard church gives you 0.75 XP/s, it’s true that such setting takes time to take off, but then you get a ton of XPs.

@OriginalKnot717

They should have buffed the resources the lombards generate by like 10% currently it takes too long for a lombard to even pay for itself let alone generate any significant income.

I guess that they hinted that you should build lombards with the architect, since they now take only 90 seconds near a basilica, or in the super late game when you can send a ton of resources through them.

You can now more easily get 1 lombard before aging up, 1 from the age up, and 1 from the 700 coins shipment, and pay themselves quite quickly.

[BusiestCarp6234]

@DoctBaghi

25 Bourbon Allies (IV): Esta carta ya no activa la Guardia actualización para estas unidades (también afecta a la civilización maltesa).

Really this is a very silly nerf, if this strong shipment reduces the number of units it delivers don’t take away the 4th upgrade, because if it is a 4th shipment I expect it to be 4th units, as well as the op. shipment of the Chinese 26 4th ratan.

[DoctBaghi]

Here are some more Italy gameplay pre-pup:

ITALY actually has a VERY strong INDUSTRIAL economy!🤑💰 [Age of Empires 3: Definitive Edition]

Knights of the Mediterranean Battle // Grand Finals Game 3// Age of Empires 3

[DoctBaghi]

I have a question… which among these are the best age 1 card to send for Italians?

• Capitalism (1.65 trickle of gold)
• Machiavelism (stronger and faster explorer)
• Maritime Republics (more resources from TPs)

I know that it depends, but overall, if you have to choose just 1 of these, what would you pick and why?

Advanced politicians it’s basically a must, and with all the lombards and mercenary companies or unit upgrades I don’t think that Italy have the space for more than another age 1 card…

Personally, I believe that the maritime republics compensate nice the Italy XP lag, but it really depends from the map and your adversary. Capitalism helps you on getting steel traps, but it still came in a bit too late to be impactful. The explorer card can be good, but again the effect is affected by luck…

[DoctBaghi]

Yeah but that is a super specific strategy that requires a specific context (and the croatian company will ne be nerfed so…).

For a multi-purpose deck made to be flexible and to be used in general with Italy strengths what would you use?

[Konahrik1140]

I think Italy needs some changes.

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Cards.

Papal Arsenal (Age III)
Basilica shipments arrive 35% faster; Papal Bombards get the ‘Holy Fire’ action, Papal Guards get the ‘Pistol Attack’ action, Papal Lancers get the ‘Lance Charge’ action and Papal Zouaves get the ‘Carbine Attack’ action.

Redshirts. (Age IV)
Ranged infantry get +25% attack and Bersaglieri now prioritize their ranged attacks on Heavy Infantry and Light Cavalry.

Alpini. (Age IV)
Musketeers, Bersaglieri, Papal Zouaves and Schiavoni get +15% hit points.

Papal Company: (Age IV) (Inf)
Ships 18 Papal Guards and 3 Papal Bombards; costs 1,000 food, 1,000 wood, 1,000 coin.

Black Company: (Age III) (Inf)
Ships 5 Black Riders and 5 Armored Pistoleers; costs 500 food, 500 wood, 500 coin.

6 Papal Lancer: (Age III) (Inf) (New Card)
Ships 6 Papal Lancer; costs 500 food, 500 wood, 500 coin.

Usury (Age IV)
Deposits a trickle of 1.65 coin, by Lombard into the player’s Lombards.

Robber Barons (Age IV) (Only Italians)
Ships 1 Factory Wagon and lombards now return 25% more coin for each invested other resource.

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Papal Units.

Priest.

Mission Fervor.
Effect 1: Grants healers +50% hit points and train speed, and +100% heal rate.
Effect 2: Priests gain deflection ability. (Only Italians)

Papal Bombard.
Speed: 3.5 (Limber) and 1.5 (Bombard)
“Ability”: Loses Deflection ability.

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General Change.

Papal units no longer interfere with shipments
All Italian technologies give a villager and the Steel Traps, Circular Saw and Amalgamation technologies are 50% cheaper.

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These are the changes I would like the developers to make.

[OriginalKnot717]

Some nice changes to ursury and papal arsenal, I too think that should be an age 3 card or at least buff it if it will remain age 4.

[StatelyPlayer64]

Sabes yo uso la carta de machiavelismo en partidas de equipo cuando no quiero ganar y solo quiero trollear un poco xd (y cuando llego a segunda uso la carta de marco polo y bueno es un chiste ya que al final gano por que me he robado casi todos los tesoros del mapa y me he financiado lentamente de eso xD) pero no la uso mucho

[OriginalKnot717]

Ever tried the age 1 card they have for more villager HP, more melee damage and +25% speed? It’s great vs civs that like to raid like germany or lakota and the 25% boost to speed gives them the fastest villagers in the game which also boosts their gathering rates because they waste less time walking around on mills/plantations and between natural resources too.

[DoctBaghi]

@OriginalKnot717

Ever tried the age 1 card they have for more villager HP, more melee damage and +25% speed?

Personally no. While I think that it’s a good and unique card, I believe that cards which gives eco advantage are better.

You also have to consider that Italy have 2 problems in the early game:

• their need for gold
• their +5% XP penalty

So capitalism helps with the first by allowing you to get steel traps without mining coins, while the second let you flood more XP, since the standard opening nowfor Italy seems to be with a TP. Machiavelism while more niche help you with both.

[DoctBaghi]

@Konahrik1140

Papal Arsenal (Age III)
Basilica shipments arrive 35% faster; Papal Bombards get the ‘Holy Fire’ action, Papal Guards get the ‘Pistol Attack’ action, Papal Lancers get the ‘Lance Charge’ action and Papal Zouaves get the ‘Carbine Attack’ action.

For me it would be enough that the schiavoni are affected too, and get shipped in less time.

@Konahrik1140

Redshirts. (Age IV)
Ranged infantry get +25% attack and Bersaglieri now prioritize their ranged attacks on Heavy Infantry and Light Cavalry.

Alpini. (Age IV)
Musketeers, Bersaglieri, Papal Zouaves and Schiavoni get +15% hit points.

This is an overall nerf… bersaglieri trades HP for speed and attack, and when need more resistance you can add papal units, which is like adding +25% resistance of all kinds.

Also, bersaglieri are considered a solid unit, the 2 cards gives you +30% (you would give them just +25%) and all other gunpowder units wouldn’t get more attack.

The italian units that needs changes are the pavisers, not the bersaglieri.

@Konahrik1140

6 Papal Lancer: (Age III) (Inf) (New Card)
Ships 6 Papal Lancer; costs 500 food, 500 wood, 500 coin.

You already have that, just in the basilica…

@Konahrik1140

Usury (Age IV)
Deposits a trickle of 1.65 coin, by Lombard into the player’s Lombards.

Lombards aren’t banks, or at least they shouldn’t be…

The card should just affect coin investments too, then it would become a good card. Right now, it already gives you more resources with every food and wood investments, which affects both of the other 2 resources trickled, so it means that you can reinvest the excess of resources, and get back even more resources and so on…

@Konahrik1140

Mission Fervor.
Effect 1: Grants healers +50% hit points and train speed, and +100% heal rate.
Effect 2: Priests gain deflection ability. (Only Italians)

Yeah… no… you already have a lot of units for that, and priests should stay priests…

Although I would make it a little bit cheaper again, like 100f 100w, so it would be easier to get an extra vill.

@Konahrik1140

Papal Bombard.
Speed: 3.5 (Limber) and 1.5 (Bombard)
“Ability”: Loses Deflection ability.

Why? That’s a big nerf, the deflection ability works really well is well microed.

@Konahrik1140

Papal units no longer interfere with shipments

I believe that this is possible only if you like triple the amount of time that they take to be shipped… but it would still a strong ability, maybe too strong… probably what they need is that each unit get different time to send depending on the batch of units.

@Konahrik1140

All Italian technologies give a villager and the Steel Traps, Circular Saw and Amalgamation technologies are 50% cheaper.

I believe that it’s unlikely to see such a aimed discount, and it would also be maybe too strong, steel traps would become a lot cheaper…

[OriginalKnot717]

I’d happily have the bombards ability removed, currently they absorb damage from your other artillery so if my falcs or culvs take a hit bombard hp is going down. I can make another falc or culv easy but with only 1 factory it’s not easy to replace lost bombards.

[DoctBaghi]

Yeah but they have a ton of HP, and they take only 25% of the damage, without any multiple. That damage it’s also spread among more PB if there are, so in reality it increases the survivability of your general army.

I mean, you PB won’t die before your falcs or culvs unless they take direct shots, since they are still taking just a quarter of the damage. So if you have some spingards and a PB in the back (not in the front) you’ll always win coulvs wars, and if you lose your culvs, you can just retreat the PB.

With standard infantry units is even better, since it can tank so many hits from nearby units before dying that it’s almost ridiculous.

Consider also that the PB bodyguard ability also give them the HP regeneration.

[Konahrik1140]

I propose the following changes for Italy, replace the Robber Barons card with Industria Avanzata and that the Usury card allow factories to deposit produced resources directly to Lombards.

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Industria Avanzata: (Age IV)
Effect: Ships 1 Factory Wagon; Factories get +100% hit points and are repaired for free; Costs 300 food, 300 wood 300 coin.

Usury: (Age IV)
Effect: The factories can deposit the production of resources directly in the lombards; Lombards now return 25% more coin for each invested other resource; Costs 500 food, 500 wood 500 coin.

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Obviously this is just my opinion.

[DoctBaghi]

I’m posting the latest Italians balance changes in order to discuss how they impact the gameplay, since lately I’m maining them.

So the changes are:

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Shipments: XP cost penalty increased to 1.07x (from 1.05x)

Probably this was needed, but still the problem of your basilica shipment delaying you standard shipment, and viceversa.

Now that is balanced for the lancers, since those guys are super strong, but it becomes impossible to ship either papal guard and schiavoni in the age 2 and 3, when then they become useless.

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Architect: Hitpoints reduced to 275 (from 300)
Lombard: Hitpoints reduced to 2500 (down from 3000)

Those were needed, both are really good in what they do, so a small nerf to their HP is fine. Probably for the architect it could be even a little bit more.

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Bersagliere:
Stun duration on enemy units reduced to 2 seconds (from 3.5) and ally speed increase reduced to 2.5 seconds (from 4)
Imperial Bersaglieri (V): Also grants +5% ranged resistance

This is probably fair too, in order to make fast imp into bersaglieri less oppressive. They are still strong though.
The extra resistance is probably for treaty, now if you add some papal units, bersaglieri can basically get up to 50% resistance.

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TEAM Marco Polo (II): No longer grants already looted resources to your team again; card moved to Age 1

This card is potentially still strong in TG, but with Italy xp nerf it’s hard to really make use of it and send it in time to make good use of it… although it still reveals the whole map, so it’s still useful.

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4 Culverins (IV): This card now sends 3 Culverins

That’s fine, Italy still can deploy a lot of cannons quickly.

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Guard Pikemen, Imperial Pikemen: These upgrades are no longer available by default due to the absence of a Royal Guard upgrade
The Papal Guard (III → IV): This politician now also enables Guard and Imperial upgrades for Pikemen and reduces costs for Guard Pikemen (free) and Guard Halberdiers (-50%)

Ok, the guard and impeeial pikes were weird… but this is a missed opportunity…

It’s ok that the papal guard now enables the guard and imp upgrades for pikes, and give the first for free, but why the 50% discount on the halb upgrade?

Why not instead change into: enables pikes and pavisiers guard and imperial upgrades, and give the guard pike upgrades for free.

So we can finally buff the pavisiers that desperately need something to make them less bland… and they don’t even need to get the 50% discount on the guard upgrade…

And please, fix the changing stances for the pavisers.

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The Royalist (IV → V): This politician sends 18 Royal Musketeers (down from 20)

Onestly, I didn’t understood this change… but ok, it’s not big of a deal.

[ChikaraSensei]

I’m ok with the nerfs, the Lombards and the architect could have had their hitpoints nerfed even more to be fair.

I think that the Pavisier just needs to get its stances improved to justify its cost. I don’t think it needs the guard and imperial upgrade, most of its utilization comes in Age II and III, and in Age IV it’s still a solid option with the Roman tactics card. In Age V, with the 33% shipment speed improvement after the update, you had better save your wood for Basilica shipments rather than train pavisiers.

Next, the Schiavoni: they are trained in the Basilica for historical reasons (Confraternite degli Schiavoni), but they don’t have any passive or charged ability, and neither they get one with the AgeIV card, besides, they are a counter-skirmisher unit with average stats. They should cost less and train faster.

Mounted rifleman: this should be an Age III mercenary, it received a consistent hitpoint nerf with the update (360 from 560). This way, Italy would solve the problem of aging up with 0 benefits with the Fortress Age Mercenary Contractor.

For the rest, I think Italy is still in a good spot after the nerfs: eventually, we will better judge the situation after some weeks from the new patch, a lot of things have changed out there.

[DoctBaghi]

@ChikaraSensei

I’m ok with the nerfs, the Lombards and the architect could have had their hitpoints nerfed even more to be fair.

Agreed, the architect could get 250 HP, and the lombards too could get a little bit less HP.

@ChikaraSensei

I think that the Pavisier just needs to get its stances improved to justify its cost. I don’t think it needs the guard and imperial upgrade, most of its utilization comes in Age II and III, and in Age IV it’s still a solid option with the Roman tactics card. In Age V, with the 33% shipment speed improvement after the update, you had better save your wood for Basilica shipments rather than train pavisiers.

The stances takes too much to be changed, and that for sure it needs to be changed in order to have people actually use them.

I disagree on the necessity for the guard and imperial upgrades, right now part of the reason why it’s not worth to go for an intensive age 3 pavisiers composition is because it can’t be followed up by an improved pavisier in age 4, and the transition in age 4 to skirms is super weird.

The guard upgrade is necessary, otherwise a fast industrial strategy will always be the best option for the Italians.

Also, the pavisiers aren’t that great stat-wise, they just have more HP, that’s their specialty, but even the maltese xbow have more HP, other than more attack.

@ChikaraSensei

Next, the Schiavoni: they are trained in the Basilica for historical reasons (Confraternite degli Schiavoni), but they don’t have any passive or charged ability, and neither they get one with the AgeIV card, besides, they are a counter-skirmisher unit with average stats. They should cost less and train faster.

I don’t know about costing less, but they should be sent faster…

@ChikaraSensei

Mounted rifleman: this should be an Age III mercenary, it received a consistent hitpoint nerf with the update (360 from 560). This way, Italy would solve the problem of aging up with 0 benefits with the Fortress Age Mercenary Contractor.

Or the age up could unlock another mercenary for the age 3, like the stradiot.