perhaps the masons card could be moved to first, since in third and second there are already too many good shipments, without saying that this shipment is usually supplanted simply taking out more architects, being in first where more would be used and it would still be inferior to having a shipment of a second architect.
2 Likes
Mmm you mean the card that buff the architechts building speed?
Mmm it won’t still be enaugh in my opinion… you would still need to add a second architect. Maybe you should be able to ship an architect, or they could at least decread the training time of the architect. Usually I can gather 200 gold while going to age 2, but then an architect idle my vill production, in my opinion it should take as much as a vill, not more, to be trained.
I also wanted to discuss about italy militaty.
Italy don’t get any regular royal guard units, having the culverin and mortars as royal guard, and overall no units (without considering basilica units) are that extraordinary when looking at their stats:
Take a look at the pavisier:
Those are the stats of a FU pavisier in age 4 and 5, with the new HC card roman tactics and maxed out by the effect that allowed to increase their attack with numbers (I still have to understand how this really works). Now for comparison, look at the stats of the maltese arbalest:
I mean, yes the italian pavisier have better resistance, and can switch between different resistances, but that as we saw has it’s pros and cons. Otherwise, both on HP and attack the arbalest completely destroy the pavisier.
Now, since roman tactics also includes the pikes and halbs let’s look at those too, and compare them to the duch and spanish ones:
The halbardier:
The pikemen:
Now, arcaich soldiers should be the core and strenght of the italians, since they have the most upgrades and HC shipment for them, but as you can see they are not. Most of them fall quite back other european royal guard units, with maybe the unexpected exception of the halbs, which are surprisingly close to the duch royal guard ones, but still not on the same page.
Then what should be the strong unit for the italians? Maybe the bersagliere? Well, yes and no… here I compared the stats of the units with the french skirm and the portuguese cacador:
So again, the bersaglieri FU have overall good attack… but are that strong? In my opinion, stat-wise it depends, but overall they fall back on other skirms, what makes them strong is their ability to stun the enemy, but that is counterbalanced by the weakness of being available only in age 4, so again, it’s not that good.
What do you guys think about this?
3 Likes
They should have just given the pavisier guard and imperial techs instead of the pikeman. The royal guard culv is decent though not as good as maltas but the royal guard mortar is terrible, usually taking the same amount of hits to destroy buildings anyway despite slightly better stats.
1 Like
There’s no particularly good italian unit by design.
I mean sure pavisiers are pretty decent but they’re not skirmishers and Maltese arbalests do eventually overshadow them.
You’re mean do have mediocre units supplemented by papal units and auxilaries of mercenaries or outlaws. The counter-skirmisher in particular is a good choice.
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I don’t mind the standard imp pike, but yes, the pavisiers are a bit bad…
Probably it would be enaught to buff their base stats a little bit, and then the roman army HC card basically act as a guard upgrade.
Yeah… considering that italy also have an uniqie heavy cannon, it’s quite weird that both royal guards are artillery.
Ok but at leat I belive that 1 unit, especially if it’s an UU should be very strong.
The closest thing is the halb and the bersagliere, but both doesn’t cut it, and the pavisier is a disapointment. Schiavoni are good, like the papal lancers, but those are support units, and you can’t mass them.
xactly that’s the weakness of the italians, just like 'mericans are weak to cavalry.
So instead ship papal units that go well with whatever you’re massing like lancers with hussars.
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So the Italian units are mediocre, because the developers want us to combine them with units that take 1:00 minutes to produce and that don’t allow you to use shipments?
4 Likes
But papal units can’t be spammed, which is fine, but makes the civ weak.
I mean, yesh I get, Italy has average hussars (for example) but if you mix in papal lancers they become good, that’s fine.
But if I’m in a situetuons when I can’t spam papal units, then italy, in my humble opinion, should have at least 1 very good unit, for the late game too, when even if you spam basilica units you also need sto spam standard units.
The basilica units are fine in my opinion, italy just need some units that doesn’t necessarily need to have papal units as support.
The pavisier could be the one, since they aren’t already bad, they just need some small push. The halbs too surprised me, they are really underrated in the late game, again maybe a small buff to the roman army card and to the pavisiers HP might do the work.
eu acho que Itália e uma civilização rank B em jogos longos eles não tem nada de original além da guarda papal a economia não e tão boa as unidades são medianas, malta e muito mais dinâmica tem varias cartas legais unidades incríveis e economia muito boa o exercito maltes e muito dinâmico e pratico em rushs e tratados
2 Likes
algumas cartas poderiam ser movidas para era 2 e 3 principalmente a do dano da infantaria e diminuição de tempo da construção com arquitetos
2 Likes
A slight change to how trainable mercenaries work so players can control which ones we get would be good for Italy with its many lombard and tavern.
2 Likes
From what I can tell, there are three issues raised here:
- Overall, Italy’s units, except papal units, are average/mediocre.
- Pavisier’s stances are rarely useful and are not worth the micro.
- Basilica shipments, which should help to compensate for the military gap, are overly controlled by being on the same shipment queue as the home city shipments and take too much time to train before AgeIV.
So what could be done in a future update?
The pavisier. Let me say something to start with. This unit trails off in AgeIV, even if you use the Roman Tactics card. They must do this because if they did not, you’d never have a reason to train the bersagliere in AgeIV. They simply need their stances to be a bit better rather than having their stats buffed:
-Switching stance animation now takes 1sec down from 2sec.
-In stagger mode, you keep ranged resistance but you get 0.5speed.
-In melee mode, you get the heavy infantry tag, a 1x multiplier vs. cav (up from 0.75), and melee resistance.
-Defense and Stand ground mode are fine as they are. They should get +15% (up from + 10%) with the Heavy Pavisier card though.
Basilica shipments and techs:
-For each Basilica built, you get -5sec in papal units training time.
-Papacy tech is already available in Basilica without Statuto Albertino card, but it’s not free anymore.
-Papal Arsenal lets you train papal units 20% faster, down from 33%.
-Carabinieri tech now gives you 10 Carbine Cavalry units down from 12, and costs 500/500/500.
-Risorgimento tech should either be cheaper, or the +1 revolutionary should be added for each unit lost, not just for vills so that it could be useful after a bad engagement. Up to the devs.
With these tweaks, the pavisier’s stances would see some play, and papal units would be more available to support your game before AgeIV. Moreover, if you build 2 Basilicas, your Papal units would still come in 40sec in AgeIV with Papal Arsenal card (50x0.80), while they would take 36 sec with all 3 Basilicas (45x0.80).
2 Likes
Mmm yes that could work. I would just add that maybe it could receive +5/+10 more base HP.
I also don’t think that they need the switch to heavy infantry tag when in melee. That stance is probably designed only to give them a bit more survivability in melee, not to actually make them a anti-cav unit.
Alternatively, they could remove the melee resistance to this stance, and buff the other 2, so to have an effect similar to what you described above.
That’s fine, considering that it’s still not that easy to build 3 basilicas.
The only thing is that I wouldn’t remove the papacy from the statuto Albertino card, it should stay as it is.
That’s fine too, except that the carabinieri upgrade should cost just 1 resource, but I agree that it should be cheaper.
Yeah, you are right. Probably just the 1x multiplier should be fine.
That’s why it should already be in Basilica. You could save a card slot this way or build your second Basilica sooner.
Don’t you think splitting the cost would better suit Italy’s economy? If you notice, expensive Italy’s shipments/techs have been divided in f/w/c. Why should this tech make an exception?
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Mmm apart from the fact that a third basilica should occupy a HC shipment slot, there is also the problem that the statuto Albertino card should then give back a new tech.
I wouldn’t mind that considering that the basilica is an unique building, but what it could be?
Also, the fact that fact that the papacy is free, it also means a free vill.
Because that usually is the norm for unique church upgrades, and is easier to focus on just 1 resource for getting it.
Anyway I would add the Italy, besides having eco techs without age restrictions, such techs should also be a bit cheaper, like 20% less. Getting steel traps for example is really hard in age 1, and then you build the basilica and have to spend 200 food on an upgrade than gives just 1 vill and a bit more LoS…
Well, I think it’s fine.
They should implement a mercenary tech for the third slot, and call it Condottieri. Historically, the Condottieri were the leaders of bands of mercenaries engaged to fight in numerous wars among the Italian states from the mid-14th to the 16th century. They served popes during the Italian Wars of the Renaissance. This tech would pair well with Lombards and Trattoria card (+3taverns) and would make mercenaries a viable support choice, in synergy with papal units.
Of course, the Papacy tech would cost few resources (200c?), this way the fact that you would be able to send it sooner would pay off in villager seconds.
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I wouldn’t also mind that the royal guard mortar would be switched with something else… maybe it could go to the halberdier, since they are a nice discovery, and the duch are the only other civ to have the royal guard upgrade on that unit.
But it’s probably too late for that, so I won’t get my hopes up…
They should add the Barrage card to help the mortar see more play. Also, Galilean Mortars should get +1 range, given that they receive a +10% bonus on attack only.
Yeah but mortars are still a niche unit in the end, and even if you further buff them I don’t see much use for them in most games.
Even on treaty they don’t do much of a difference.
Well they could add that after the galilean mortar upgrade for free, otherwise I personally wouldn’t sacrifice another HC card for them…
I would still prefer to see royal guard halbs, they could call them arsenalotti, or arsenal guards or something similar if they need a name.