I've changed my mind about auto-queue

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Old topic, but I’m a new player and wanted to chip in my 2 cents.

Background: I’m in my 30s and I’m completely new to RTS games, never played them before this. I picked up AoE4 to play with a friend who insisted it was a lot of fun. For a year or two I would play a game with him, then be completely disinterested, he’d convince me months later to try again, and the cycle would continue.

Finally, I decided to really try and get better at the game. Watched YT tutorials, learned my hotkeys, and beat my first hardest AI a week or two ago. Now, I’m trying to get more consistent with beating hardest AI. My biggest pain point: I forget to keep making villagers. The time I beat the AI I didn’t fall behind on villager production, but 95-99% of my games I’ll forget for far too long and suffer the consequences.

I find this to be the most infuriating part of learning the game. It provides no additional feeling of accomplishment that I managed to never forget hitting H and Q/Shift+Q in a match. It just reminds me that fighting against my ADHD sucks. I don’t medicate my ADHD with anything other than coffee, and I long ago accepted that my distraction prone brain is such that I’m only going to get so good at this kind of game format. I’ll certainly never be good enough to play in the most competitive ranks, even with TC auto-queuing (just watching beasty play gives me heavy anxiety). And I truly want to enjoy this game, but right now it feels like the only things keeping me going are a couple of friends that play it and a stubbornness to “git gud” (I’m a Soulsborne addict, it’s in the blood).

So, that’s my case, and I agree with all of the arguments in favor of the TC auto-queue I’ve read here - it’s a QoL improvement that makes the game more accessible to new gamers (especially ones with conditions like ADHD), not some oversimplification of gaming mechanics; a minor concession, not a “set it and forget it” econ hack that ruins competitive play. In just econ micro alone, you still need to rally the villagers to the right spots, build houses for more population, remember your upgrades (which I also struggle with atm), etc. Add all of the micro and macro decisions of your military and the game still has plenty of enjoyable complexity.

I’ll end it with this: For those arguing it will ruin competitive play, how so? If the only reason you are winning against newer players is that you are better at this single, menial aspect of the game, do you really feel like you are a better player? Would it truly give you a greater sense of accomplishment if you knew, for a fact, that the only thing you do better is manual villager production? And that you’d lose a lot more if it were no longer required? Dunno about you, but I wouldn’t. Odd hill to die on if you ask me, doesn’t make a lot of sense. Unless you’re not really worried about ruining competition, just that it might lower your chances of keeping your rank and getting your End-of-Season trophies.

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You won’t be able to come anywhere near the competitive levels if you can’t handle constant unit production. The other skills involved are much harder. If you don’t believe me, please try Age of Mythology Retold. It already has auto-queue for Villagers. And let me know how far you are able to get in that game.

So what would be the next step? Keep dumbing down the game until everyone can play like MarineLord? RTS games are about managing your attention and prioritizing your actions. The whole gist is to overload your attention with too many things to focus on at once, so that you have to prioritize, and the best player is the one who prioritizes best.

So removing a small part of this won’t magically make you a good player, in part also because if you were a good player, you would already prioritize Villagers above anything else in the game. Not doing it means you don’t understand the game and the importance of making Villagers, and get distracted by less important things. And this will keep happening even after they automate Villagers.

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Some multitasking and overloading is fine but in interesting actions.

Applying the same RTS formula in 2024 or making “extremist bordering on absurd” comments just for fear of making that genre less difficult for new players I don’t think is the way.

Age of Mythology is an example. It is increasingly competitive and there is villager AQ. The overload of actions per minute are on more interesting/strategic things.

An RTS that has some automation in some action doesn’t make it any less RTS.

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You could probably state your arguments in a less aggressive manner, especially since you’re a mod and I can’t answer in the same manner without the risk of getting banned.

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You said, and I quote:

“So what would be the next step? Keep dumbing down the game until everyone can play like MarineLord?”

Can you explain how this isn’t simultaneously reductive and hyperbolic, or do you want people to seriously engage with the hypothetical you’ve written? Because I can absolutely engage with it seriously, it’s just such a silly suggestion that I evidently need to check in case you start tone policing the replies.

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Manual villager production is a barrier to entry for new players, there’s no doubt about that. Plus, it’s a boring task that doesn’t add anything to the game.

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I’ll explain in more sentences. Introducing auto-queue will not solve the poster’s problems because prioritizing actions constantly is what competitive AoE is all about. To solve his problem, the devs would have to keep removing features that force him to prioritize his actions, until the choices become obvious or there are very few actions to prioritize. The whole game is based on being overloaded with actions, and you using your limited speed optimally. In conclusion, the only way to solve his issue would be to keep simplifying the game until it’s not competitive anymore. I suggested he tried AoM if he thinks auto-queue would solve his problem. It already has Villager auto-queue and it’s a good way for him to reach the conclusion that auto-queue would not solve his problem.

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Introducing autoqueue is not meant to solve problems. It’s meant to shift the cognitive burden away from basic mechanical APM to more meaningful actions per minute.

“prioritising actions” is something you do in literally any video game. It’s a very simplistic way of describing any two (or more) things a player can be doing at once. It isn’t unique to competitive AoE, and it isn’t even unique to AoE. Claims of “dumbing down the game” are common across a slew and genres and games within those genres.

AoM is a pretty different game to AoE IV. Nevermind the setting, mechanically, it plays pretty differently. A better suggestion would be “try AoE IV on console, where it already exists, to which you can also connect a keyboard and mouse” (as far as I’m aware - welcome to corrections). So we already have a mouse+kb platform (with the multitasking advantages that brings) with autoqueue for Villagers. Right? With cross-play to boot.

Nobody needs the game “simplifying until it’s not competitive anymore”. There are words for putting words in folks’ mouth, you know? The slope from “AQ to help Villager management” to “make the game so easy that skill makes no different in playing it” is incredibly long, and completely ignores how we maximise the decisionmaking space in light of any negative impact (real or otherwise) AQ has on any given phase of the game. I’m even ignoring for a moment that a human playing will be able to balance the production queue manually better than AQ, and will therefore will always have an advantage over it.

Let me ask you a straightforward question: wouldn’t you prefer to spend your time balancing more interesting decisions rather than how many times per second you can tap the Villager hotkey?

There are plenty of ways to maximise action priority.

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That you attempt to refute a new player’s argument with a “reductio ad absurdum” fallacy was simply my description of your comment.

My intention was not to offend you or disrespect you, I think you have already been told the reasons why I said that. If I am wrong, let me know.

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I didn’t realize you were addressing that specific sentence at the time, and saw your reply as simply labeling my whole post conveniently and subjectively. That sentence in particular was an exaggeration for dramatic effect, but I did elaborate in the post as to why his request wouldn’t fix his problem with the game, and to fix his attention deficit would require further simplifications. If he doesn’t have the attention to be aware of his TC being idle, he wouldn’t have it for other aspects of the game, such as keeping his production buildings working, or checking his resource distribution constantly, or checking his supply cap. RTS genre, more than any other genre, is meant to overload you with decisions, which is why most people say there’s too much going on and also why the poster has issues with remembering to make Villagers because of being distracted by other things. I disagree with MortGorb that all games work like this.

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Why? Name me a game, and I’m reasonably sure I can give examples (assuming I have some idea what the gameplay is like).

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The slope is long, but the point is the poster would need more such changes if he can’t focus on Villagers, because there are more systems based on the same principle in RTS, such as unit production and unit supply. I see your point, but I don’t think RTS is that deep to allow for the removal of all those systems. It’s only difficult enough to be at the edge of human cognitive ability when all these are taken into consideration.

Many more people would be able to play the game optimally if that was the case. The difficulty comes from doing what needs to be done, on top of these menial tasks, not from the menial tasks themselves.

That’s also a good option, but not everyone has an Xbox.

I won’t keep arguing just for the sake of arguing. The way you position yourself in conversation doesn’t give me the impression that you will concede that you are wrong, even if you realize it. There are many games, most popular genres actually, that don’t overload you in the way RTS games do.

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Maybe I had to specify to make it even clearer.

The point is that the difficulty in multitasking is either fun or not. The more tasks considered “tedious”, the less fun it is.

It’s like in an example of a user (I don’t remember who that person was) who said that if he wanted to punish his son because he misbehaved, he would make him play an RTS with that premise.

We have to understand that if the difficulty is fun, it’s more bearable even if you have a high number of tasks. That’s all there is to it.

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There’s an argument here for splitting the game into multiple modes, some more focused on competition, others more focused on fun. You know, like a CO-OP mode.

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This is precisely what I am getting at. Forgetting to build economic upgrades, military buildings, and military units, or allocate my villagers to the right tasks and resources, or scout the opposing base properly… All those points of forgetfulness on my front feel like meaningful choices that I wouldn’t want automated. No logical player wants these things automated, because at that point you are more or less watching the game play itself. Your decisions on these fronts matter heavily and feel meaningful. Villager production is not interesting and does not feel meaningful, despite how meaningful it actually is. Just feels like monotony for the sake of inflating APM.

Will AQ be the end-all be-all of my chances at success? Of course not. So many other ways I can f it up, I get that. But, my recent search history now includes “how to modify the SFX of AoE4” in a last-ditch effort to turn the ping sound of villager creation from a tiny blip to something short, loud, and obnoxious that I can’t ignore, if not to play in ranked to at least condition me to hit the buttons every X seconds. Or I could just have a KB macro app run the same keystrokes on a set time schedule, just a workaround to get me the same functionality as if I owned and played on an Xbox at that point.

I don’t think the content of my post can be reduced to “if I just had this one thing automated, I’d be a good player” and to paint it that way feels either disingenuous to my point or willfully ignoring it. The point I wanted to get across is that I know I am new at the game and need to get better, TC villager AQ alone will not make me better, but personally it will increase my enjoyment of the game win or lose and it doesn’t detract from the competitiveness of the game as a whole to implement it (especially when it exists on the Xbox version anyway). I would feel the same way about a mechanic like having to reseed farms (wild that that was ever a thing to me) or if gathering resources required you to queue the back and forth of dropoff point, resource, dropoff point, resource, etc.

Hell, I’d even concede to add it in custom and non-ranked matches only (even though it’s a feature on Xbox so… It is in ranked technically?), just so I can grasp and get better at the fun parts of RTS micro with the limited amount of time I have to play games. But, there’s a problem with this - the devs won’t focus on bringing in a minority of newcomers like me if there’s a chance it’ll negatively impact its base. it has to be adopted by the community at large if it ever has a chance to make it into a future update, ranked or otherwise, and while the player base is strong and negative feedback like this is so prevalent I don’t see it happening.

Not made of money here, and I have no friends that play this one. Similarly, AoE4 on Xbox would require I repurchase the game and an Xbox, so fixes the friends to play with issue but at a much higher cost. Like I said, I got it a while ago to play with a friend, now I’m giving it an honest shot and genuinely just trying to get good enough to beat hardest AI with some level of consistency (1:1 W/L Ratio), which is a pretty low bar as far as competitive play is concerned.

If I can talk them into AoM, I’ll consider getting it at least, it’s just sad to me that it really boils down to one reason why I’d want to switch. It’s my only critique as a new player, I enjoy every other aspect of the game.

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Your point is speculative. Maybe the poster would benefit from other changes. Maybe AQ would be enough.

As for RTS being deep enough, well, it depends on the game. The Dawn of War series isn’t known for being simplistic (especially the original - a classic if niche 00s RTS), but it has “overwatching”, which is essentially autoqueue in all but name, and you can enable this for a variety of tasks (mainly unit production, reinforcing damaged squads and I think weapon upgrades. I’d have to check).

My point is that this depth can be added, if AQ proves that detrimental. But we won’t know if we don’t try. Plus, it already exists on console (with PC hardware) as already mentioned.

That wasn’t an answer to my question.

Then it should be easy to give me an example. I’m trying to make a point, if you don’t want to engage with it, that’s your choice. Simply re-iterating that you’re right without explaining it isn’t a discussion.

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OK, but isn’t forgetting military units the same as forgetting Villagers? If you find that a meaningful choice, you could tie adding some Villagers to the queue with it, and add both at the same time. Think of it as adding units.

Then there’s not forgetting to make Houses. Again it’s something you need to remember to do periodically.

I understand you have a condition (hopefully not self diagnosed) and that you refuse to medicate it, but at the same time you want to be able to play a highly competitive game that’s all about stressing your attention. Maybe something’s gotta give here. Either you find treatment for the condition, or you focus on a game that you are able to play unmedicated. There’s an upcoming “RTS” game called BattleAces you might be interested in, that got rid of unit queues and houses, and even worker units.

I don’t think every competitive game should cater to every condition people have. If I have a bad heart, I don’t pick up professional football, or ask FIFA to add more resting breaks so that I am able to compete. That would be fine if the game was targeted at casual players, but it’s not, and making it easier for you will make it worse for better players.

Here is a small tip that might help you. Try to always have 2 Villagers in queue. This way you will have 40 seconds to remember, and if you miss one for some reason, there’s a high chance you’ll remember by the time the 2nd one is made. If you’re about to go into a fight, or the game is very intense, you can even add 3 or 4 to the queue, to give yourself more than a minute. Later on in the game where food is plentiful, you can have even more, and just add when you occasionally remember. If you’re ever short on food, which I don’t expect you to given you’re struggling with the game, you can always cancel some Villagers.

AoE4 is actually very lenient when it comes to Villager production compared to other RTS games like SC2 or AoE2. It takes 20 seconds for a Villager to train, so you only have to make them 3 times per minute. If you have 3 in queue that means you’re set for a full minute. Invest some food while you’re still learning the game, in order to have constant Vill production.

I’m sorry and I didn’t mean it like that. I thought I read in your main post that most your problems would be solved if they automated Villagers, but re-reading it I realize I misread. But again, you’ll have the same problem with military production, or Houses, which need to be made periodically as well, and other people will just have a bigger army just like they have more Villagers currently, if you can’t keep up.

I would be fine with it being in Custom and QM. Xbox has it because the micro aspects are much harder on a controller.

You enjoy having to remember military units and Houses, but not growing your economy? If you think automating Villagers will solve anything, try to tie them to when you make military units, because it’s basically the same thing. So when you queue army units, also queue some Villagers.

If you don’t constantly make army units, you will still lose to someone who does, even if devs add Vill AQ, because having all the Villagers in the world means nothing if you don’t spend all those resources constantly. And spending all your resources is much harder than remembering to queue Villagers. Someone who makes a shit ton of Villagers but has 2k+ of every resource is gonna lose horribly to someone who forgets Villagers but keeps all resources at 0.

There is always going to be something that requires attention in RTS, and most people struggle making Villagers when they start, even if they don’t have ADHD. People still forget them even as high as Gold or Platinum. So don’t think of it as something you need to do perfectly. It’s OK to forget a Villager here and there if you’re not aiming for Conqueror. Just try to do your best and spend all resources you are able to get, and eventually you will get everything down. And if you really have this condition and it’s diagnosed by a professional, maybe look into getting some treatment for it. I’m sure that will help some.

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Not self-diagnosed, I was medicated for a few years, but amphetamines have long-term health consequences and I decided I’d rather live longer and work with my condition than live a shorter, more focused life.

Any reason for putting RTS in quotes here? Want to make sure I’m not misreading your intention, but in this context it reads like air quotes in person, sort of like saying “RTS (if you can even call it that)”. And that also sounds oversimplified.

Perhaps my tone earlier is reading as I’m not enjoying the game, But it’s not that, I’m having fun playing with friends while lightly venting my frustrations at being a n00b. I can see myself eventually getting there with villagers, but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see an improved experience for myself via feature parity on my platform of choice.

Nor do I, but facts are facts: They did. They catered to Xbox players and implemented this feature, and they catered to people with disabilities by allowing full hotkey remapping for custom controllers on PC. Xbox players can play ranked matches against PC players with this feature and play KB/Mouse. Precedent has been set, and the lack of feature parity between platforms doesn’t serve any purpose other than to placate those on PC disavowing the mechanic.

By that logic, they already did when they introduced it into the Xbox version. Did it lessen the experience for good players when they added ranked Xbox cross-platform play? I see no posts in the community about how Xbox players using Mouse/KB are ruining it for PC players, so I think it’s safe to establish we have evidence TC AQ did not make it worse for better players.

Better players don’t dodge when they see they’re playing an Xbox player, because in the end a better player doesn’t care if you’re on Xbox or that you only play English. They’ll dunk on you regardless.

This is just not true. I have my resources at 0 trying to pump as much into making military around minute 13-15, but I don’t have the resources to keep production up. Why? Because I forgot villagers earlier and now my deficit in resources / min is coming back to haunt me. it seems like such a given that you want villagers to keep being produced, in the same way you want villagers to drop off resources and go back for more or switch to the next sheep when they’re done with the one they’re gathering from.

Not really the same thing IMO. Military units are a choice to make (What unit comp am I needing in this situation? What can I afford right now?) and houses are a once per 3 minutes thing early on that you get a blaring warning about (Population capacity is reached) and have 20 seconds to resolve in order to not interrupt production, then later they are a meaningful choice (do I need the pop now? How much? Or do I need the wood and the villagers to keep producing?). Villager production is just a given need all the time for the first 15 minutes and any lapse in remembering results in it being a silent killer (for PC users anyway).

Feature parity across platforms is my main and strongest argument, but regardless of the reason I know we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this issue. Instead, here’s a thought I had, and I’m honestly looking for feedback and a middle ground here - What if AQ was implemented, but in such a way that if resources are available it is added to the queue up to the max number possible in a TC? In this way, there is a tradeoff - less optimal play as the food is tied up in villagers rather than something you can leverage for military, upgrades, age up, etc. Not something you want to do early on, but as you age up and more meaningful choices arise it can become a decision worth considering. Thoughts?

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I don’t consider it an RTS in the traditional sense. It’s more of an arena battler with card game mechanics, as in you set up a deck of units before every game. But I heard good things about it and that it’s fun.

Do Xbox players still have the auto-queue if they plug in a mouse? I’m gonna look into that. If that’s true, I’m gonna disable cross-platform MP.

Whatever choice you make, you still need to produce them constantly, just like the Villagers, and your condition would have the same disadvantages. Your motivation was the condition, right? Not the fact it’s not a meaningful choice.

As I said, it’s only a given if you want to reach Conqueror. You don’t have to play perfectly, and most people don’t. Even some of the ones that are better than say 75% of the players forget Villagers when things get tense.

You can disable it and you will never meet anyone playing on Xbox, just like you never did before they added cross-play.

It’s hard to evaluate whether the disadvantage can or can’t make up for AQ, and in the end you get people playing on an uneven ground. I’d rather have a toggle for not queuing against people using it, but even that is bad because you’re fragmenting the player base. Tbh I just don’t want the game to change, unless it’s a game build from ground up with this, so that people can decide from the get-go whether they want to buy it or not with those simplifications.

Why can’t you do that manually though? How many units can be queued in a building? 15? That’s 5 minutes. I imagine you can remember every 5 minutes to queue up Villagers. If it’s that bad that you forget it for 5 minutes at a time, I can’t see how you could play the game well in terms of queuing military units.

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Valid point. It’s not really fixing anything if all you do is just queue to the max, you can remember at least once in a 5 minute period to max queue at the TC. Even I can do that, and was doing that on day 1. Not a good way to beat hardest AI, I will say that.

I guess it’s just clear that we have to agree to disagree at this point. You see it as a key component to the fun you experience playing the game, and only give leeway to allowing it when the person is so disadvantaged by using a controller. I (and the others who have chimed in here in favor of AQ) see it as mechanical APM, distinguishable from meaningful APM, that would not deter from the game if it were automated and only discourages new players by elevating the barrier to entry. I think we can leave it at that.

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