I have just runned an editor map, put 40 frank crossbowman vs 20 mamelukes and was able to out micro them with ease, dont forget they miss the atttack when the enemy is not standing still.
It is not supposed to be a deathball unit, which is why it is so costly. If the Mameluke was spammable, it would break balance quite bad.
Man i will 1v1 anydays u go 20 mameloukes elite fully upgraded and I go 40 crossbowman
crossbowman = 45 gold E mamlukes 85 gold. And i dont pay for the upgrade I will win. Wheras if i have went for camels I would have won easily.
when I say deathball unit I mean âexists as part of a deathballâ not âItâs a single-unit composition that just wins.â Mameluke HCA is a deathball like Mangudai Siege Onager is a deathball. Once you get it, itâs a death composition.
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I would never engage Crossbowmen with Mamelukes, I would go around them and slaughter Vills.
Mamelukes can run from fights, Crossbowmen cannot.
Paladin civs usually do not have Arbalests or Camels, so they cannot catch the Mamelukes and actually deal with them effectively.
So your whole argument is not valid. You dont even need arbalest to trade with mameloukes effectively, even frank crossbowman eats them. whicxh are one of the worst. Then again, you never go mameloukes you go camels.
You do, because Arbs have greater Range than Crossbows.
Franks cannot beat Saracens, if you buff Mamelukes.
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Its actually really hard to raid with mameloukes they have camel armor class and they take â â â â tons of damage from castle arrow and tc arrow. Since they have low range they can fight near tc. They also miss a lot of shots from moving villagers.
Castles no longer deal bonus damage to Camels, and Towers only deal +1.
Dude throwing axeman eats the â â â â out of mameloukes. they are 50% more efficient and they mass way faster. Franks get cheaper castles too.
They do not. TAs are basically better HCs, they do nothing to Mamelukes.
TAs cannot even catch Mamelukes.
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In a fight with equal gold, Taxe beats Mameluke
But in a fight with equal gold, youâd be foolish to engage them.
When mameluke and numbers are equal, the losses per side for gold are about even. Mamelukes win pop efficiently, taxe wins cost effectively. That being said, the training time of the mameluke is quite a bit higher than the Taxe, so if the franks push early I think the numbers advantage can pay off to make it an efficient engagement for the Taxe.
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The math is easy to do, Taxeman are 50% more cost efficiant than mamelukes and with a bit of micro with +1 range you could reach 65-75% more cost efficient. Plus Taxeman are easier to mass and franks castle also cost less stone.
At the end of the day mangudai, kipchack are as good vs paladin as mamelukes are when massed.
just micro them
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Thatâs not even remotely close to being true:
The Boyar is a high melee heavy cav variant, so it should shine out as the biggest possible exception to the âMameluke kills cavalryâ rule (besides the Cataphract, obviously) and the Mameluke utterly slaughters it with equal resources with no micro where the Mangudai loses in the same scenario despite costing far less.
Yes, with Micro, Mangudai will perform better than this test shows (esp since boyar are so slow) but the same thing can be said for the Mameluke, and there should be absolutely no doubt that the Mameluke and the Mangudai are uncomparable in TTK against cavalry. The Mameluke will handle the problem quicker.
You making excessive arguments that arenât true are debasing your position. Iâve heard what your opinion is on it and to an extent I agree with it but exaggerations donât help your cause.
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I wrote a topic long time ago about how the shotel warrior is sick and broken and so strong and guess what happened? People start mocking on my topic
I wrote a topic about Mameluke few days ago, and many people agree that at least the Mameluke need a cost reduction and training time reduction, i wrote 4 points about buffing the Mameluke
None of the infantery units counter Mamelukes, some are just awkward to kill, but all can be outmicroed, will never kill you.
Eagle Warrior are not a counter either. They have no melee armor and die easily to mamelukes.
Camel archers arent a counter either, I would rather say that Mamelukes are currently the best unit to fight against all kinds of Cavalry archers, camel archers do NOT get a bonus vs mamelukes.
Mangonels also arent much of a counter, they get shredded by mamelukes.
Huskarls again are not a counter, they have no melee armor therefor die easily.
Skirms are getting bonus damage, but are not a great counter either, because a big part of the counter comes from the high pierce armor. Again, they have no melee armor so they die easily to mamelukes.
The only really hard counter to mamelukes is camels, while they also die to mass archers.
I am unsure why heavy camels have to get +25 attack against them, while mamelukes get 0 bonus damage, but besides that pretty much all on your list are just plain wrong.
But it is unwarranted, because the unit is never seen. Neither in 1v1s nor in teamgames. And Saracens were a popular tournament pick earlier last year. Still noone ever used them. Since most people agree that the unit itself is not bad, the cost must be too high. If you dont think the cost is too high, why else would noone ever use it?
Intelligence? I mean, this isnât really a conundrum. Very few civs exist with really top-tier cavalry and even fewer of them are forced to rely on it. Youâd say âFranksâ and Iâd say Taxe. Malian, Persian, and Berbers all have Camels. Practically the only civ relatively viable that doesnât have a plan B besides Cavalry is Lithuanians. How often do we see Saracens vs Lithuanians? Iâd gamble not much, since thatâs an utterly horrific matchup for the Lithuanians.
Who in their right mind would field cavalry against Saracen Mameluke? You arenât asking the right questions. If weâre worried about the Mameluke not seeing play, consider just for a brief moment that itâs not the unit that is rare but the circumstances in which it should be used that are rare. Cavalry-bent civs like the Lithuanians generally have a plan B that they utilize because the Saracens are a strong anti-cavalry civ. That, and the metaâs been infested with archer civs and meso civs for as long as anyone can remember. Why should we expect the Mameluke in these situations? If they were still a serious factor in games with 60-strong archer deathballs, wouldnât that indicate a problem with the unit?
âwhy arenât we seeing the sun?â âIs it nighttime?â âyes.â âThatâs why you arenât seeing it.â âman the sun needs a buff.â
Not being seen is not a reason to be buffed. Not being seen in the situations where it should be seen is a serious concern. Thereâs a massive difference between these two things.
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