Rule #1 about mamelukes, don’t talk about mamelukes. Drawing more attention to mamelukes will only increase the chances that they get nerfed even more. If somehow you manage to get them buffed, they will be quickly double nerfed to even worse than they were before. Such is the way with Saracens.
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well they were recently buffed (in two seperate ways) and haven’t been nerfed yet.
So you are saying that they are a counter unit for cavalry, that is ONLY useful if the enemy has absolutely 0 units to counter them and even give Frankish throwing axe man as a reason not build mamelukes.
I heavily disagree with your opinion then. This means, that the unit is either too weak, because everything except the unit it counters kills them OR they are so expensive, that it is never worth it to build them if there is a chance the enemy can switch into a different unit.
A counter unit isnt supposed to counter the whole civ, which I would say would be Bulgarians, Franks, Lithuanians and newly the Burgundians, that would not have a real answer to massed mamelukes. Counter units are supposed to counter a unit composition, and every civ should have something available to switch into that can deal with them. Cavalry civs are popular. Its not like they are never played, definitely not. Mamelukes also perform reasonably well against Cav archers. One of the few units that can actually kill them. So if a unit is literally never seen, although the unit they counter is common then there is something wrong with that unit, which in the case of the mameluke simply is the insane gold cost.
So no, it is not a case of “Why dont we see the sun at night time?” but rather “Shit, we arent even in the freakin solar system.”
No, you’d have to be twisting my words in a very particular way to reach that conclusion. That’s why I started the answer with
as a nod to the fact that players trying to win the game won’t make a stupid decision. The fact that Malians, Berbers, and Persians will go Camels instead of the Paladin or a stronger generalist cavalry is a nod to the strength and respect for the Mameluke. The reason the Franks don’t go for their plan A and stick to the plan B, that is the result of the Mameluke being present even if it’s not being created. That is a show of the strength of the Mameluke, not an indication of it’s weakness.
If we saw Berbers spamming their ultra-cheap cavalier and Persians/Franks utilizing their Paladins in spite of that then you’d have a point. They don’t. They aren’t stupid. The idea that the Mameluke is underpowered due to the opposition’s intelligent choice not to make the unit it counters is flawed to say the least. They avoid the option out of respect for the serious threat Saracens present to Cavalry. Buffing the unit more won’t change that, unless you did something absurd that busts the unit in general case. The OP wanted speed, and I convinced him in a single test of Camel vs Mameluke that it was a bad idea. What do you want? Cost? Armor? Cost won’t change the anti-cav nature. Armor will make it a generalist unit and cause it to get heavily nerfed. Go ahead. Batter up.
It’s nighttime. The Mameluke isn’t coming out. Get over it.
Thats not how age works even in the slightest. Noone will not even attempt to go for the best unit their civ has, because of the possibility of it being countered by a unit from the castle that is extremely expensive and needs to massed to be effective.
Noone would ever expect Saracens to go for Mamelukes. If anything, after the buff they will be warry of Saracen Camel Riders instead.
Frank players still go knights if the enemy has camels available, Britons will still go archers against vietnamese, Persians and Berbers will not build a single camel, unless they see a saracen stable or already mamelukes on the field.
Camels dont cost anything to switch into, and dont need to be massed, there is zero reason to build them unless you SEE the opponent already has something they would counter. If anything your comment should be the opposite: Mamelukes are never even attempted because they get shred by camels, which many cavalry civs have available.
Yes, it’s nighttime, but we are in Lappland and winter never ends.
Dude are you serious? This unit is just so bad, I have 1v1 wholes to who who claimed :
I’ll send you my steam invite code if you want to try outmicroing Mamelukes with Mangudai. I come from experience, and I’m telling you, flat out, that what you are claiming should be easy is not easy and you will struggle to make it look easy.
I killed him on a 50 vs 50 fight and only lost 5 mangudai in the process.
When @MatCauthon3 said Aoe2 should be balanced around pro players, I have the same opinion as him about that. Lets see what Hera has to say about the unit :
Go at around 23 minutes :
If you look at the video mamelukes are so hard to micro even a pro player like mr Yo loses all his mamelukes to halbs.
Now my point is saracens should always go camels because camels are strong vs knights, they are EASIER to mass, They are WAY cheaper, They dont die super fast vs skirms.
Get rid of that archer armor class. ITs not an archer and it does not get the archers tech upgrade in the blacksmith like the conq does. It’s a 3 range unit that missed 100% of the shots when the target is moving and get outmicroed by cav archer unique unit. So even if enemy has mangudai you will go camels, if enemy civ has camels, you go camels, and not mamelukes, franks jsut need thowing axeman and mamelukes are out of the equation as we have stated thowing axeman are only 25g and 50% more efficient. The unit is slow to produce you need a castle for all the hurdles the pro never play the unit and Iv not seen a mameluke for at least 6 months.
Get rid of the archer armor class, and 1 pierce armor, do something. The unit look super dope a cutter on a camel. I want this unit to be viable.
The OP wanted speed, and I convinced him in a single test of Camel vs Mameluke that it was a bad idea.
First of all let’s get things clear, You challenged me to 1v1 me YOU said. And after I PROPSED YOU to try out the camels it ended up leaving you with a tiny amount of mameloukes. so Yeah even with the speed buff It took you a hell load of time to clear my camels.
I’ll send you my steam invite code if you want to try outmicroing Mamelukes with Mangudai. I come from experience, and I’m telling you, flat out, that what you are claiming should be easy is not easy and you will struggle to make it look easy.
I killed your mamelukes and only lost 5 mangudai in the process. on a 50 vs 50 fight. It was super easy I gave you 3 chances. We also disscussed about how the throwing axeman counters the mamelukes so easily. Like you have the balista elephants when massed what is the counter? seige onagers which cost so much resources to tech into and fragile to counter them. mamelukes are not even close to that.
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You’ll buff any unit that doesn’t get seen without considering why it doesn’t get seen, I think we have different understandings of the way AOE works.
Do Kamayuks need to get buffed? How about Condotierro? Slingers? Genitours? Why Mamelukes, and not the rest of these units? Go ahead. Explain with words why you aren’t selecting one unit out of this pile that isn’t “It’s too expensive” because that argument is utterly nonsensical. It outruns, and counters, Cavalry. In spite of it’s cost it is excessively cost efficient against these units.
Kamayuks, Condos, Slingers are often made, while Memelukes never and they aren’t memes.
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LONGBOWMAN, HUSKARLS I EVEN SEE 600% MORE TEUTONIC KNIGHTS THAN MAMELOUKES, Persia elephants, kipchack, mangudai, camel archers, chu-ko-nu, throwing axeman, balista elephants, kamyuks, plummed archers, the list is still long. MAmelukes? You would be utterly lucky to fight against them.
There was no speed buff. We agreed this is the main counter to the mameluke. All of that is irrelevant to the fact that after we did the test you immediately said
ok
no speed
as if it’s almost like you agreed that I was right about the speed or something. So are you just saying things or is there a point to you bringing up the test without the discussion in context?
First test was 15, second test was 18, neither of those numbers are good, but again, you taking excessive measures to exaggerate whenever you speak is undermining your credibility every time. I’d recommend you stop.
50/50 is an absurd mass. And it makes the bonuses attributable to the Mangudai over the mameluke way more present. I tried to get you to do 20/20 which is the test I gave everyone else. It’s just really hard to split micro units against archers when there’s so many more. Yes, you’ll likely have such a mass of Mangudai because of just how absurd the unit is but we’re agreed to the fact that Archers generally do very well en masse against mamelukes and that the Mangudai is just the best unit in the entire game, so I guess you win that discussion?
The question wasn’t “Can Mamelukes win” because any player with a third of their brainpower would understand that having higher MS and longer range means “eventually, yes.” The point I was making was about the difficulty of such a feat. I gave you the entire map. If I constrained the map location in a meaningful way, the outcome would look far more reasonable for the Mameluke (and if you’d like to argue that point, we can certainly redo those tests >:P)
Cost effectively, not Pop efficiently. With equal numbers Mameluke slaughter Taxe. We’ve been over this like seven times. Pop efficiency matters in a plethora of cases outside of scenario editor.
Often is a figurative term. Once in a year is “often” when it’s something you count for your argument and “practically never” when it’s something that counts against it. Conveniently leaving out a unit, I see?
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Man you look like a frank main and super afraid about this trash unit. Franks has cheaper castles, Their throwing axeman are creeated 35% faster AND FRANKS HAS BETTER EARLY GAME. Cheaper castles so mroe castles, more pressure the list goes on. So DONT WORRY man your opponent wont even consider going for the trash.
50/50 is an absurd mass. And it makes the bonuses attributable to the Mangudai over the mameluke way more present. I tried to get you to do 20/20 which is the test I gave everyone else. It’s just really hard to split micro units against archers when there’s so many more. Yes, you’ll likely have such a mass of Mangudai because of just how absurd the unit is but we’re agreed to the fact that Archers generally do very well en masse against mamelukes and that the
Man you offered me a 20/20 and I told you go for 50/50 and YOU are the one who TOLD ME are you sure? it will favor the mameloukles and I told you I dont care I WILL BEAT YOU IN any fair situation you propose me. I know the mamelukes, the pro know the mamelukes. It is a bad unit overall.
I don’t play the franks. Frankly I don’t care for any of their composite units and I’m not a big fan of raiding with gold cav. Not having a good hussar is a big no for me with cav civs. Assuming what my motivations are and arguing around those is a very poor choice if you want to have a rational, down-to-earth debate.
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and per what you said
“yo is going full mameluke right now, which makes a lot of sense since its such a powerful unit” 28 minutes into the video.
furthermore i have yet to see this scene where you say he was actively tryuing to micro his mamelukes against halbs and loses them all, and i’m 30 minutes into that video.
but you know what i do see? every time he micros his mamelukes, he SLAUGHTERS halbs. even hera was pointing out. that for halbs to ACTUALLY counter mamelukes they have to actually get on top of them. and YO was frequently able to run away from halbs and do damage elsewhere. it isn’t until well after the 23 minute mark we see Halbs chewing up mamelukes and that’s because Yo had so many different groups of them out that he couldn’t focus on any one group.
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Slingers are always seen vs Longswords and American match-ups
Condos are always seen on Islands and when you want a quick transition, instead of teching to Champions
Kamayuks are just very stong and very often made vs Cavalry civs
at the same time:
Memelukes are never made. Ever.
That intesive micro cost him the game and lost a lot of them in the process. Then HE could have gones for the worst crossbowman or skirms its a nail on the coffin.
Yet I still see you leaving out a unit I mentioned… Almost like it doesn’t serve your argument.
Damn. Are we watching a deflection, live on the AOE 2 forums? T90, get in here. This man bout to distract with a castle drop.
he wasn’t even doing anything close to intense micro at any point in that game, lol. he literally lost his entire arb ball because he wasn’t microing all that well.
furthermore this was PRE DE when you had to deal with worse lag.
Because Genitours are trash, as trash as Memeluke. Why would I point out them? Actually they could be better than Memelukes, considering they are made from Archery Ranges.