[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

This technology would improve archers in general. The Apache only improve themselves and are also gunpowder cavalry.

So have to reinvent Cheyenne technology.

Love it! These types of improvements are those that encourage the use of natives.

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The Comanche were renown for being fierce traders - basically, You will trade with us or we will take your money by force.
Give them gold-related mechanics, not food-related ones. Leave the Cheyenne to be food-related, they’re closely intertwined with the Lakota and should have the same focuses - heavy cavalry and food.
The Comanche should be light cavalry and gold.

SimilarOwl0320 The black earth it might be better for the Arawak. It would be better for this future and potential minor faction in the game.

These are my conclusions after doing a little better research.


Another technology you could implement is meat smoking. This would mean that the animals you hunt do not decompose and the cattle would yield 20% more (A higher limit of fattening, but it will reach it in the same time as if it were the normal limit). Although I do not know if the Comanches used this practice, it could be implemented in any other North American tribe.

Replies

You actually gave me a GREAT idea!! There’s a thing called “Bufalo Pound”, which would be good to add but we already have The Granary. I think meshing Granary+ meat smoking as a “Buffalo Pound travois” would then make it unique. What do you think? You wrote about limestones for Maya, I would add it too but I forgot about what I was going to make XD.

Yep the thing is: I can’t think of anything unique. There are plenty of minor techs and cards that boost farms or make them cheap and I really can’t disassociate it from effects of “better farming”. I’m accepting suggestions as always! :sweat_smile:

MAYA
Mayas have only 2 pity techs that are not remarkable at all. They would need at least at least four new ones to be even with African Minor tribes.
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MAYA - https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Maya

NEW TECHS

  • Maya Polities (200w, 200c for every opponent): The complex polities in Maya states will let you know the arrival of Home City shipments shipped by your opponents.
    Effect: All Home City shipments received by your opponent are revealed to you.
    Why: Filler tech: This one might not be worth it in 1v1 but it is definitely powerful in team games with more than 4 players. When this tech is researched, it is revealed, globally, to all players. The HC cards are notified just like your HC shipments.

Lore: Throughout its history, the Maya area contained a varying mix of political complexity that included both states and chiefdoms. These polities fluctuated greatly in their relationships with each other and were engaged in a complex web of rivalries, periods of dominance or submission, vassalage, and alliances. Worldhistory.org; Researchgate;

  • Maya Astronomy Codex (270f, 270c): Study Mayas’ astronomy researches to share their knowledge."
    Effect: Gives books worth of 1000 XP next time you age up
    Why: This one is much more suitable than “Maya Defense Town” and it’s similar to Zen Meditation (but cheaper due requirement). I’m ok with duplicated technologies as long as the minor natives won’t ever be on the same map.

Lore: The Classic Maya in particular developed some of the most accurate pre-telescope astronomy in the world. At the time of the Spanish conquest they had many books but only four of these codices exist today.
Wikipedia - Maya city

  • Maya Total Warfare (275w, 275c): The wins of Maya armies boost the prestige and power of your alliance.
    Effect: You gain more 50% more XP for every unit killed and every building razed by your Maya Holcan Spearman. You gain +15% more XP when that is done by your non-siege land units.
    Why: I always wanted to add an effect of damage boost for every enemy killed (or being awarded for it). I believe the time has come now.

Lore: Scholars have developed models for Maya warfare based on several lines of evidence suggesting critical resources such as water and agricultural land. Some suggest that the capture of sacrificial victims was a driving force behind warfare. New evidenced point out that violent, destructive warfare targeting both military and civilian resources (often referred to as “total warfare”) was taking place even before a changing climate imperiled Maya agriculture NatGeo - ancient-maya; Wikipedia- Maya_warfare

  • Maya Altar (300f, 300c ): Every enemy killed favors the will of your Maya soldiers.
    Effect: Boost the hand damage of all current Maya Holcan Spearman by +25% damage for 4s, for every unit they kill while they are alive. Up to +50% damage and 8s.
    Why: This tech might be of good use considering pikeman units don’t stay alive for long in this game. It’s a big buff but it’s a temporary one: the ones fighting are the ones losing HP, therefore they’re the ones who will get the shortest benefits. It’s a representation of their fierce way of battle: if you want victory, keep fighting.

Lore: Although warring leaders undoubtedly benefited materially, one of the main goals may have been to acquire sacrificial victims. Sacrifice not only legitimized the ruler by intimidating rivals and awing the citizens, but was also associated with concepts of sacred fluids and the passage of time. Warfare is alluded to in to the mythology of the Popol Vuh. Wikipedia- Maya_warfare

  • Maya El Dorado (150f, 150c ): Maya wealth and trades benefit your own economy as well.
    Effect: Improves market sell rate by 10%. Economic Home City shipments also deliver 300c directly to your resources.
    Why: They only have 1 economic technology so I believe one more would help a lot. By “Economic Home City shipments” read , all shipments that come from The Wise Woman, Manufacturing Plant, Merchant’s Guild etc

Lore: Trade in Maya civilization was a crucial factor. The economy was fairly loose, and based mostly on food. En-academic.com; Wikipedia - Trade_in_Maya_civilization
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CURRENT TECHS

Maya Cotton Armor: This tech is too expensive for an unpopular class (hand infantry). I believe that byreducing the cost to 200w, 200c + having a secondary effect of increasing Holcan Spearman ranged armor by 10% it would be better.

Maya Calendar: It applies to all food gathering but the cost feels a bit too much: cost reduction or small increase could be nice.

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that seems like a hard thing to add and confusing, not to mention that as melee infantry it probably rarely will happen even if they fight units they counter.

i actually kinda like this, not sure its worth 600 res tho.

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I suggested an improvement in espionage and I think nobody liked this concept ha ha. But it would be great.

It wouldn’t be so confusing. When the Indians heal units, they increase the resistance points a bit.

SimilarOwl0320 An upgrade that gives them ranged attack would make them useful in the mid-late game.

A lot of people are against it, but imo Mayans should be fully playable

Maybe Tupis too lol

I’m against it :yum:. We don’t have enough south American natives so turning them into major civs would’ve be a shame.

I personally see nothing remarkable about the Tupi. Mayas on the other hand do have potential, but Aztecs and Incas are already too similar, so I don’t think having a third “cousin” would be cool.

I read about their ranged weapons. Fascinating indeed. In AOE2 they were even a archer civilization!

I don’t think that anything that changes models would be added for minor civs. It’s a lot of work changing models or adding new animations for something that might or not be used.

I’m all down for it but I’m quite realistic considering they are focusing on maps and the new dlc. Plus technologies have not been balanced or new ones added yet (which it’s something incomparably easier) :tired_face:.

2 Likes

Add the Mapuche. I think they’re big enough and distinct enough to make a civ out of.

6 Likes

Yes, that would be great, but …
In case of adding, what minor civilization replaces them?

I don’t think animation is very difficult to do. They can be based on this unit. In practice and in animation they would be very similar. With the difference that the Maya would have more reach when using the lever.

They should really add more South American natives, especially to remove the Central American natives that never touched South America.

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Muisca and Jivaro are my top picks for the region.

It isn’t. It’s not hard but it takes a while. And notice that Holman Spearman uses the pikeman model. They would have to copy and paste Gascenya’s model and rebuild the design to create Holcan, adapt the animations and then the skin.

But the issue is not that. The issue is that they are apparently busy with the dlc and they’ve been recreating maps and improving QoL.

They’ve never remodeled a single unit since the game was released, so I think it takes a designer a lot of hours to do it but the team would rather have them focused on maps, new units, campaigns, new maps, bugs etc. Obviously it’s jjust my 2 cents about it and I ight be completely wrong. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

@ Jonasnee8581
Thank you Jonas!

  1. I think you are absolutely right. I’m editing it right now so it can be much more simple and effective.

  2. About the XP boost, you are also right: it isn’t worth the resources. But do remember that there are cards that can cut the cost drastically (Native Lore removes all coin, African and Asian civs have even better techs). And if someone pulls out this tech it would be worth half of the Spanish civ (+27%xp) in terms of fights (+10% xp). Maya Spearman himself would be worth a single spanish unit. So if it works it will be just roll! That’s why I set the bar a bit higher.

  3. And for the last time: you are right! Holcan alone isn’t worth it, but the issue is Heavy Infantry themselves. That’s why I always add overall effects a “plus” for native units in every tech to promote them and attract players: every time you are buffing something for your civ, you are also boosting that native unit too.

ZAPOTEC
I couldn’t find too much unique things to add them as technologies that have not been added so far. I’ve added references to their Cult of Dead and Mesoamerican civs overall.

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https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Zapotec

NEW TECHS

  • Zapotec Logosyllabic System (150w, 100c): The old Zapotecs’ hieroglyphs allows training at buildings.
    Effect: Zapotec Lightning warrior can be trained at your military buildings. Melee heavy infantry can be trained at Zapotec sites.
    Why: Filler tech. I couldn’t think of anything for it but If I can figure it out something interesting I’ll add here.

Lore: The Zapotec hieroglyphs record the rise and fall of the Zapotec state between 500 B.C. to A.D. 700. This system is considered the precursor of the later developed by the Mayas, Mixtecs and Aztecs and spread widely in southwestern Mesoamerica. Famsi.org;

  • Zapotec Obsidian Artifacts (150f, 150c): The Zapotec treasures can help you uncover more misteries.
    Effect: Native warriors, Explorer and settlers get +1.0x multiplier vs treasure guardians and every treasure claimed also awards 50c. Zapotec Lightning Warrior gets +0.25 speed.
    Why: At first I would add a military improvement but Zapotec ended up having too many. I have no idea what to add here. Filler.

Lore: Obsidian was a highly integrated part of daily and ritual life, and its widespread and varied use may be a significant contributor to Mesoamerica’s lack of metallurgy. Field Musem- Zapotec archaeology; Youtube- Mesoamerican weaponry; Worldhistory

  • Zapotec Heritage Urn (200w, 250c): Zapotec Cult of dead will grant new warriors for each one fallen so far. Can be used two times: second time has double the cost.
    Effect 1: Ships 1 Zapotec Lightning Warrior for each 2 you have lost so far (up to a maximum of 15).
    Effect 2: Ships 1 Zapotec Lightning Warrior for each 4 you have lost so far (up to a maximum of 15). Boost the HP and hand damage of all ZLW by 10%.
    Why: Okay. I’ve copied this one from the newest cards of their cousin: the Aztec. I think it fits them better than the Aztec but I didn’t want to throw away the tech below. They are quite inferior to JPK and SK, so this tech also boosts their stats.

  • Zapotec Ancestry Honor (250w, 250c): The Zapotec afterlife cults present in their culture, boosts the damage of Zapotec Lightning Warrior.
    Effect: Boost the hand damage of all current Zapotec Lightning Warrior by +25% damage for 5s, for each of their units who are killed while they are alive. Up to +50% damage and 10s. Adds -0.5x multiplier (damage penalty) vs cavalry.
    Why: .That is similar to the Maya tech. Giving 50% damage at once is too much but making it cheap and temporary balances it out. This is the specific tech of Zapotec Lightning Warrior.

Lore: The Zapotec worshiped their ancestors and, believing in a paradisaical underworld, stressed the cult of the dead. The afterlife cults inherited from these beliefs are symbolically celebrated on the Dia de los Muertos - Day of the Dead. The representations of skeletons, humans or animals and figurines of the goddess Micanteculi (the Zapotec Goddess of death) are found commonly during the event. Easyvoyage; Infoplease

SUGGESTION FOR CURRENT TECHS

Zapotec Food of the Gods: Horrible. They have the same tech as the Maya but it cost 50% more (and Maya’s isn’t even that good :roll_eyes:). Considering thy were an agricultural people the tech could boost arms more than the toher sources: as 15% or 20%
Zapotec Cult of the Dead: It used to be fair but hand infantry is so bad nowadays. Reducing the cost or buffing it a bit should make the use worth it.
Zapotec Cloud People: Sounds fair. Not great and not bad.

2 Likes

This unit is the unit that replaces the jaguar warrior, so the updates and stats should be similar. The price and speed of jaguar warriors were recently altered to improve their viability. The Lightning Warriors should readjust accordingly.

I tried to find an argument that would give them more speed, but I think could have good speed without the need for improvements.

2 Likes

I’ve wanted to use your suggestions bout the Zapotec but I couldn’t think of a way to implement them: I liked the XP on death thing you said! We may stick a speed bonus somewhere in the techs. You should post more too!. :smiley:

As far as I could find Zapotec were basically a cousin of Aztecs and Mayas in terms of culture, they all had: cotton armor, sacrifices, lots of gods, obsidian and stone weapons, slingers, agriculture-based blah blah blah. They also used Macuahuitl just like the Skull Knight.

This unit is the unit that replaces the jaguar warrior, so the updates and stats should be similar. The price and speed of jaguar warriors were recently altered to improve their viability. The Lightning Warriors should readjust accordingly.

Although Jaguar Warriors were exclusively from Aztecs I’ve found paintings and pics of Jaguar warriors in vases, urns and walls too so it made me think they were not exactly “equals”. Apparently just for worship:

Aztecs way of war was much more dominant

Actually Zapotec were belligerently inferior to Aztecs. The Aztec army, which had Jaguar Warriors, conquered much more area, were much more dominant and engaged many more wars than Zapotecs: actually, when they knew Aztecs were losing to the Spanish, they actually decided to avoid war at all costs against them. Nevertheless, they were defeated by the Spaniards only after several campaigns in just five years

Difference: Aztec Wars and Warriors vs. Zapotec Wars and Warriors
  • A difference is that Aztecs took the wars to a whole other level. While the Zapotecs simply waged war to expand their territory the Aztecs would wage a war for something trivial.

  • War was never a big part of Zapotecan religion. This is completely different from the Aztecs. The Aztecs waged war to get more people to worship their God, Huitzilopotlchi. Every conquered city must convert or be killed. The Aztecs sacrificed so many that they started a whole set of wars, the Flowery Wars, because they ran out of people to sacrifice.

SOURCE: Aztec vs Zapotec Comparison - Aztec Comparisons

Dominance
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I can’t think of any more ideas related to Native Americans for now. Although I would like to see a tupi unit with firearms, a musketeer if it is historically feasible.

About the Asian populations I would like to see improvements or related technologies with the Silk Road. For example, an improvement that makes shipments arrive almost instantaneously, or to be able to configure the trade route to receive outlaw units or native allies. There is a mission in nathaniel black’s campaign where the trade route delivers villagers. I would like to see something similar.

I would also like some technology that makes Rattan Shields get a bonus against artillery and infantry (skirmish and archers). Although someone mentioned in this forum that this unit is not historically accurate.

The Zapotec lightning warriors with increasing their speed would look good. They would honor its name.

One of the reasons that minor civs aren’t picked is because the underwhelming wood inversion.

What if minor civs TP give you a pasive or one time bonus based on the minor civ?

I really wish wood wasn’t so slow to gather in AoE4 and AoE3, especially given the cheapest buildings in AoE3 are over 100 wood.

Also, I really like TAR’s native heroes. I kinda wish more civs had that.

Yes, I think the same. A passive upgrade without the need for upgrades. Something similar to the allies of the Asian consulate.


The improvement I proposed on the Caribs was based on a mission from the Morgan Black campaign, where they get lost in the Caribbean and find some navigational maps guarded by pirates, but they were not directly related to the natives. An improvement like that seemed like a good idea to me and that’s why I looked for something more truthful.

New improvement:

Caribbean knowledge: Shipments arrive 15% faster and cost 15% less experience. It also reveals all the mines on the map. The Caribbean natives give you geographic information about the sea and the islands, and will warn you of hurricane seasons.
Being an ally of the Caribs you will have better control and mapping of the islands and the Caribbean Sea, and trips to the continental territory will be easier to carry out. You will be able to trade and transport yourself more easily, and your island settlements will be able to restock supplies much easier.
The Caribs have a great geographical knowledge of the Caribbean region and navigate the ocean without problems. They are also aware of hurricane seasons and will share the knowledge so you know the proper seasons for boating.

“The first exchanges between Europeans and indigenous peoples included gold ornaments, fish, cassava, water, cotton and exotic birds. In return, they received glass beads, bells, caps, pieces of broken bowls, fragments of glass cups, brass rattles, laces, pins, canvas shirts, coloured cloths, scissors and knives, which were of little value. These exchanges were viewed by the Europeans as mechanisms to establish alliances with indigenous caciques, besides obtaining their favours, geographic information on the presence of gold and generating a favourable image for the communities that they encountered or would go on to encounter (Las Casas Reference Las Casas1875: volume 1, 306–25).”

“The explicit settlement pattern and management of regional and local space, in addition to the mixture of material culture styles in the northern Hispaniolan sites, allude to the social and cultural diversity of the region experienced by the Europeans at the time of contact. It reflects a connected environment, an aspect taken advantage of by the Europeans during their first explorations of the interior of the island, which laid the foundations for a route that would become instrumental in carrying out colonial domination, which itself is characterised by the establishment of a system of fortifications. In this sense, the spheres or lines of social interaction between indigenous communities, from pre-colonial moments onward, cemented a regional history marked by coexistence, interaction and transculturation. Finally, the persistence of indigenous cultural traditions and knowledge in the present-day Dominican Republic and Haiti strongly counters the idea of substitution, displacement or disappearance as suggested by the traditional historical criteria”.

Hurricanes have ravaged the Caribbean for millennia. The cycles of activity have varied, but the massive storms have always presented a threat. Centuries ago, long before the advent of weather forecasting, the storms in and around the Caribbean inflicted so much catastrophic damage that it seems remarkable people remained. But they did, and they rebuilt. Now, as we enter an uncertain era marked by a warming planet, the resilience of these communities will be tested again and again.

For the indigenous Taíno and Carib people who populated the Caribbean islands in the pre-Columbian exchange years, the storms were part of the cycle of their seasons—feared, but expected. The Carib, from the Lesser Antilles, were skilled navigators on the water and scheduled the launch of their raiding party canoes for early winter, past what is recognized today as the June-to-November hurricane season, notes Yale history professor Stuart Schwartz in Sea of Storms, his history of Caribbean hurricanes*.*

“There’s even evidence Europeans relied on Indians to tell them when hurricanes were coming,” Schwartz said. The indigenous islanders read signs in the way birds and fish behaved, the color of the sun, and abrupt shifts in the breeze. “The Indians are so skillful that they know two or three or four days beforehand the coming of it,” one Englishman wrote in 1638.




To avoid confusion that is how it would look:

Caribbeans

image

New technologies:

Caribbean knowledge: Shipments arrive 15% faster and cost 15% less experience. It also reveals all the mines on the map. The Caribbean natives give you geographic information about the sea and the islands, and will warn you of hurricane seasons.
Being an ally of the Caribs you will have better control and mapping of the islands and the Caribbean Sea, and trips to the continental territory will be easier to carry out. You will be able to trade and transport yourself more easily, and your island settlements will be able to restock supplies much easier.
The Caribs have a great geographical knowledge of the Caribbean region and navigate the ocean without problems. They are also aware of hurricane seasons and will share the knowledge so you know the proper seasons for boating.

Native browsers. Fishing boats and canoes are cheaper (-15% wood).
In addition, all ships increase your field of vision.

New unit:
’Dugout canoes’: Especially large canoe, more efficient for fishing than other canoes, and also with better attack. Enabled at the dock. (Creation limit of 10)

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