[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
163

The post is about techs butI have to talk about him

NAVAJO RIFLEMAN
PROBLEM:
Navajo Rifleman is a weird unit. DE gave them more damage but removed their rifleman tag (so they can’t gain any improvement as Skirmisher), all multipliers (so they can’t counter anything) .
The intention was using them as flankers thanks to their good base damage and stealth but they quickly lose value since they have low range, lose to everyone and have an irrelevant speed for what they are. Actually their ranged damage (20dmg, 14 range) is lower than a Musketeer’s (23 dmg,12 range).
CONS:

  1. Proper units will easily surpass them with upgrades because their multiplier will stack.
  2. Navajo Rifleman will still lose to any unit that has bonus vs infantry (Falconets, Lancers, Sowars) because they are tagged as light infantry.
  3. Cavalry is better at raiding and flanking and have no penalty vs settlers (yes, Navajo has ranged penalty vs settlers :confounded:)
  4. They can’t excel vs units that are countered by Skirmisher because they aren’t considered Skirmisher.
    So what is this unit supposed to be???
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164

One of the upgrades should just grant them the rifle infantry tag. Something like:

Navajo Raiding Party - sets multiplier vs villagers to 1 and grants the rifle infantry tag

165

Tupi animal lore should be deleted in coherence with the approach to the other big American Natives civs.

It’s also not useful.

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166

Basically it is (or was) a native strelet version, it is not very strong, but it is very cheap. I’ve done some rushing with this unit with ottomans and it usually worked out well for me. (Before DE).

On the painted desert map he combined them with Apaches and they were a powerful combination.

I think his previous role must return. What I would do is increase your range (18 maybe (?)), Speed and projectile tolerance (for mid-late game).

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Yes, they used to be very bad. But then, if we return them to the Skirmisher role they will be one more and quite mediocre:

There are Cherokee, Klamath, Cree and Sudan with Skirmisher.

Tupi, Seminole and Carib with Archers.

All main civs have their main Light Infantry already.

So what good will come by turning Navajo Rifleman into one more skirmisher again? I’m not sure. Apparently the devs envisioned something else but that did not work too.

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Sudan has heavy infantry, not skirmishers. Somalis have a skirmisher with their Darood Militia unit but it’s a pretty unique anti-artillery unit.

The problem is that North American natives mainly just conducted raids so most of their units will be light infantry or cavalry. They did try to differentiate some of them, while others are essentially clones.

Cherokee Riflemen and Klamath Riflemen are essentially the same unit with the only difference being train time and build limit and they’re pretty much just a generic skirmisher.

Cree Trackers are supposed to be tanky with low attack (but they’re having to rebalance them so the US upgrades for them aren’t busted).

Navajo Riflemen are supposed to have stealth and a high base attack but with no multipliers and low resists. Counter infantry rifling makes them really good against heavy infantry so they took away the “rifle infantry” tag even if it doesn’t make sense. They could add back the tag and they still wouldn’t be overpowered since their attack is still less than skirmishers with the upgrade and they lack multipliers vs light cav.

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169

Comanche! My favorite minor civ! Overall it’s a underwhelming civ but they have A LOT of potential. A small tweak to the techs and units will make them top tier.

COMANCHE

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OLD TECHS

SUGGESTIONS TO OLD TECHS

  • Comanche Mustangs (Cavalry get +5% speed):
    Rework: Cavalry get +7,5% speed.
    Why: It used to be 10%, but I understand the frustration of fighting portuguese dragoons with 8 speed. The current effect isn’t huge, so perhaps a mid-ground between the vanilla’s 10% and DE’s 5%?

  • Comanche Horse Breeding: ( Cavalry and light infantry hit points +10%)
    Rework: All Cavalry get +15% HP and light infantry hit points +10% (any elephants and camels get 10% instead).
    Why: For some reason Cree, Navajo and Comanche have basically the same technology of buffing HP of cavalry and (light) infantry but Cree now has got the best one with the lowest cost. Time to rework them (Comanche= cavalry gets more, Cree= all get the same, navajo= infanty gets more)?

NEW TECHS

  • Comanche Warrior Tradition (200w, 200c): Comanche Tribe’s mastery of mounted archery improves the skill of archers on a horseback, specially Comanche Horse Archer .
    New effect:​ All cavalry archers gain + 1 range/+1 LOS. Comanche Horse Archer gain +2 range/+2 LOS instead and shoot 10% faster.
    Why:​ Cavalry archers are units who don’t have a single specific tech from native settlements. This tech praises the notorious Comanche skills with bow and arrow. Again: it’s a “specifically general” tech, a favorite of mine.

Lore: Master horseback riders who lived in teepees and hunted bison, the Comanches were stunning orators, disciplined warriors, and the finest makers of arrows. They were especially skilled on mounted archery. Comanche History; Deadliestwarrior - Bow and arrow; Americanart- comanche-feats-horsemanship- Y’all! Short but very cool article!!!;

  • Comanche Hunter Tradition (150f, 150c): Comanche greatest warriors are also their best hunters! Comanche Horse Archer will bring food to your Town.
    New effect:​ Comanche Horse Archer generates 0.6 food/s. Increases ranged damage by 10%.
    Why:​ That is a homage to Comanche culture of hunting bisons and their skill as hunters. It generates 6f/s at best, which would be equivalent to 7 settlers. It’s not broken because of their cost, build limit and because they will continuously die in battle.

Lore: As he approached manhood, a boy went on his first buffalo hunt. If he made a kill, his father honored him with a feast. Only after he had proven himself on a buffalo hunt was a young man allowed to go to war. Wikipedia - Comanche#Children

  • Comanche Hunting Times/Plains (200w, 200c): The Hunting Grounds are proper for hunting: You can receive bisons from your shipments.
    New effect:​ Ships 1 Bison for every age that has passed. Non-military shipments from your Home City also delivers 1 free bison to your economic point .
    Why:​ By “non-military shipments” read as: “Home City shipments that do not come from The Warrior, Military Academy, Fortress etc”. Cheyenne already have a technology based on bison hunting but one is definitely worth for the Comanche. You get more immediate bisons if you use it later, but the steady income of future bisons dry out since it’s implied you have already shipped several cards.

Lore: When the Comanche reached the plains, hunting came to predominate. Hunting was considered a male activity and was a principal source of prestige.
Wikipedia- Bison_hunting

@AnaWinters ! Come forward and give your feedback! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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170

I really enjoy upgrading archery horsemen, but I would also like you to give it a bonus against villagers, as the Comanche were experts at repelling invading colonists.

I really like receiving shipments of bison, but the Cheyenne have something similar. Maybe they could make the bison harvest faster, and the Cheyenne do what you propose. We would also have to adjust it for Japan.

This is the Cheyenne upgrade that could do that.
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Or this upgrade could be reimagined for the Cheyenne.

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171

Thank you so much for appreciating the post! I’m glad you liked it!

But don’t the Apache have a tech that does that? Raiders is the name. It makes their units do bonus vs villagers. I was reading severa ltexts and the Comanches would do unbelievable things on horses. The last reference has a description done by a guy who witness it.

I’m gonna disagree with you here because Cree, Navajo and Comanche are the ones with similar techs :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: ! I think the original devs copied and pasted it by mistake from their wordpad XD. How could 3 civs have the exact bland effect of HP buff?? Anyway:

Cheyenne delivers 12 bisons at once. This one is rather slow: it gives bisons as the time goes on.

The goal was to mimic the long history of hunting and living on the greats plains, hence the focus of being able to hunt bisons continously and receiving more of them the “older” you recognize this tech:
“The Comanche have the longest documented existence as horse-mounted Plains peoples; they had horses when the Cheyennes still lived in earth lodges”.

I envisioned this one tech as getting one bison with every home city shipment only but I realized that would be either pretty powerful (with military shipments) or pretty slow (with no military shipments), so I decided to deliver free bisons upon activation. I can remove it though!
I made it a cousin to Hunting Grounds on purpose (that’s why I called it Hunting Plains/Age XD).

The Tech that makes Horse Archers generate food also gives hunting bonus (and it’s also a recognition of being “long time hunters”).

I got this idea from TAD Fan Patch of Age of Sanctuary . When they rebalanced Sioux, all of non-military shipments would deliver bisons.

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This technology would improve archers in general. The Apache only improve themselves and are also gunpowder cavalry.

So have to reinvent Cheyenne technology.

Love it! These types of improvements are those that encourage the use of natives.

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The Comanche were renown for being fierce traders - basically, You will trade with us or we will take your money by force.
Give them gold-related mechanics, not food-related ones. Leave the Cheyenne to be food-related, they’re closely intertwined with the Lakota and should have the same focuses - heavy cavalry and food.
The Comanche should be light cavalry and gold.

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SimilarOwl0320 The black earth it might be better for the Arawak. It would be better for this future and potential minor faction in the game.

These are my conclusions after doing a little better research.

Another technology you could implement is meat smoking. This would mean that the animals you hunt do not decompose and the cattle would yield 20% more (A higher limit of fattening, but it will reach it in the same time as if it were the normal limit). Although I do not know if the Comanches used this practice, it could be implemented in any other North American tribe.

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Replies

You actually gave me a GREAT idea!! There’s a thing called “Bufalo Pound”, which would be good to add but we already have The Granary. I think meshing Granary+ meat smoking as a “Buffalo Pound travois” would then make it unique. What do you think? You wrote about limestones for Maya, I would add it too but I forgot about what I was going to make XD.

Yep the thing is: I can’t think of anything unique. There are plenty of minor techs and cards that boost farms or make them cheap and I really can’t disassociate it from effects of “better farming”. I’m accepting suggestions as always! :sweat_smile:

MAYA
Mayas have only 2 pity techs that are not remarkable at all. They would need at least at least four new ones to be even with African Minor tribes.
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MAYA - https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Maya

NEW TECHS

  • Maya Polities (200w, 200c for every opponent): The complex polities in Maya states will let you know the arrival of Home City shipments shipped by your opponents.
    Effect: All Home City shipments received by your opponent are revealed to you.
    Why: Filler tech: This one might not be worth it in 1v1 but it is definitely powerful in team games with more than 4 players. When this tech is researched, it is revealed, globally, to all players. The HC cards are notified just like your HC shipments.

Lore: Throughout its history, the Maya area contained a varying mix of political complexity that included both states and chiefdoms. These polities fluctuated greatly in their relationships with each other and were engaged in a complex web of rivalries, periods of dominance or submission, vassalage, and alliances. Worldhistory.org; Researchgate;

  • Maya Astronomy Codex (270f, 270c): Study Mayas’ astronomy researches to share their knowledge."
    Effect: Gives books worth of 1000 XP next time you age up
    Why: This one is much more suitable than “Maya Defense Town” and it’s similar to Zen Meditation (but cheaper due requirement). I’m ok with duplicated technologies as long as the minor natives won’t ever be on the same map.

Lore: The Classic Maya in particular developed some of the most accurate pre-telescope astronomy in the world. At the time of the Spanish conquest they had many books but only four of these codices exist today.
Wikipedia - Maya city

  • Maya Total Warfare (275w, 275c): The wins of Maya armies boost the prestige and power of your alliance.
    Effect: You gain more 50% more XP for every unit killed and every building razed by your Maya Holcan Spearman. You gain +15% more XP when that is done by your non-siege land units.
    Why: I always wanted to add an effect of damage boost for every enemy killed (or being awarded for it). I believe the time has come now.

Lore: Scholars have developed models for Maya warfare based on several lines of evidence suggesting critical resources such as water and agricultural land. Some suggest that the capture of sacrificial victims was a driving force behind warfare. New evidenced point out that violent, destructive warfare targeting both military and civilian resources (often referred to as “total warfare”) was taking place even before a changing climate imperiled Maya agriculture NatGeo - ancient-maya; Wikipedia- Maya_warfare

  • Maya Altar (300f, 300c ): Every enemy killed favors the will of your Maya soldiers.
    Effect: Boost the hand damage of all current Maya Holcan Spearman by +25% damage for 4s, for every unit they kill while they are alive. Up to +50% damage and 8s.
    Why: This tech might be of good use considering pikeman units don’t stay alive for long in this game. It’s a big buff but it’s a temporary one: the ones fighting are the ones losing HP, therefore they’re the ones who will get the shortest benefits. It’s a representation of their fierce way of battle: if you want victory, keep fighting.

Lore: Although warring leaders undoubtedly benefited materially, one of the main goals may have been to acquire sacrificial victims. Sacrifice not only legitimized the ruler by intimidating rivals and awing the citizens, but was also associated with concepts of sacred fluids and the passage of time. Warfare is alluded to in to the mythology of the Popol Vuh. Wikipedia- Maya_warfare

  • Maya El Dorado (150f, 150c ): Maya wealth and trades benefit your own economy as well.
    Effect: Improves market sell rate by 10%. Economic Home City shipments also deliver 300c directly to your resources.
    Why: They only have 1 economic technology so I believe one more would help a lot. By “Economic Home City shipments” read , all shipments that come from The Wise Woman, Manufacturing Plant, Merchant’s Guild etc

Lore: Trade in Maya civilization was a crucial factor. The economy was fairly loose, and based mostly on food. En-academic.com; Wikipedia - Trade_in_Maya_civilization
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CURRENT TECHS

Maya Cotton Armor: This tech is too expensive for an unpopular class (hand infantry). I believe that byreducing the cost to 200w, 200c + having a secondary effect of increasing Holcan Spearman ranged armor by 10% it would be better.

Maya Calendar: It applies to all food gathering but the cost feels a bit too much: cost reduction or small increase could be nice.

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176

that seems like a hard thing to add and confusing, not to mention that as melee infantry it probably rarely will happen even if they fight units they counter.

i actually kinda like this, not sure its worth 600 res tho.

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177

I suggested an improvement in espionage and I think nobody liked this concept ha ha. But it would be great.

It wouldn’t be so confusing. When the Indians heal units, they increase the resistance points a bit.

SimilarOwl0320 An upgrade that gives them ranged attack would make them useful in the mid-late game.

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A lot of people are against it, but imo Mayans should be fully playable

Maybe Tupis too lol

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I’m against it :yum:. We don’t have enough south American natives so turning them into major civs would’ve be a shame.

I personally see nothing remarkable about the Tupi. Mayas on the other hand do have potential, but Aztecs and Incas are already too similar, so I don’t think having a third “cousin” would be cool.

I read about their ranged weapons. Fascinating indeed. In AOE2 they were even a archer civilization!

I don’t think that anything that changes models would be added for minor civs. It’s a lot of work changing models or adding new animations for something that might or not be used.

I’m all down for it but I’m quite realistic considering they are focusing on maps and the new dlc. Plus technologies have not been balanced or new ones added yet (which it’s something incomparably easier) :tired_face:.

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180

Add the Mapuche. I think they’re big enough and distinct enough to make a civ out of.

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181

Yes, that would be great, but …
In case of adding, what minor civilization replaces them?

I don’t think animation is very difficult to do. They can be based on this unit. In practice and in animation they would be very similar. With the difference that the Maya would have more reach when using the lever.

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They should really add more South American natives, especially to remove the Central American natives that never touched South America.

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