[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

Zapotec

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Current technologies:

All are fine, but change one to make it more attractive to the player.

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Zapotec Cloud People: (Passive Upgrade) You will now receive 100 wood every 4 minutes and receive 100 input when performing this upgrade as long as the alliance is maintained.

New technologies:

Zapotec irrigation systems: The Zapotecs have an ingenious irrigation system for crops
All types of crops produce 5% more.

Cult of the dead in the temple ‘Mictlán’: When the Zapotec warriors die they generate experience for the player and not for the enemy. In the case of your own soldiers, they generate less experience for your enemy and a little for you.

New unit:

Zapotec Villager: Villager who only works in cultivation and creates a bonus area that makes nearby villagers produce more (2% bonus).
The Zapotecs are excellent farmers and they know how to cultivate these lands and they share their knowledge.
Limit of 5.
Cost 200 food - 150 coins.

3 Likes

Wouldn’t African natives only appear on African maps ? So what’s wrong with them being strong ?

It means that the previous natives should be improved accordingly. The Africans are better processed, and the older ones poor in content.

5 Likes

I’ve always thought Nootka War Chief should buff the Nootka Clubman somehow 'cause all warchiefs do that.

He could’ve act like Mansabdar and buff their HP slightly (up to +10%) or just damage or just siege or attack speed. I’ve used him one day in the 50 states challenge for USA and I was surprised he would die very quickly but then I realized he was just 2 Clubmen together with more armor: his tech is basically a (wasted) tech slot to queue two units at once.

Nootka Chief = 400 hp
1 Normal Nootka Clubmen = 200 hp; (*2 = 400hp)

Nootka Chief= 24 hand attack
1 Normal Nootka Clubmen = 12 hand attack; (*2 = 24 attack)

Nootka Chief = 60 siege
1 Normal Nootka Clubmen = 28 siege; (*2 = 56 siege)

So sad. The base natives are the most overlooked feature in AOE3: It looks like no one gives a damn about them.

5 Likes

A big reason why melee infantry natives are bad is because melee infantry is bad. That needs to be reworked first IMO then this can be revaluated. However rather then pick any one group to change I’d like to change the mechanic as a whole.

Realistically if it was up to me, I’d ‘try’ and I use the word try because I like to try and see if things can work, aware of the possibility it might not is that I would remove the ability to train native warriors. Instead you get them in occasion batches of 5 at your military delivery point at a rate that is about effective as a stagecoach. I’d also increase the current limits by about 50% and allow them to shadow tech like they do for the African civs.

This way the natives function as an actual alliance rather then being something you need to spend resources on feeding and also addresses the issue of them being your entire army. I would also increase the amount of techs on offer to a minimum of 4.

1 Like

A big reason why melee infantry natives are bad is because melee infantry is bad. That needs to be reworked first IMO then this can be revaluated. However rather then pick any one group to change I’d like to change the mechanic as a whole.

Are you the Peachrocks from the old AgeSanctuary? Accurate and wise pov!
That is one of the things I dislike in AOE3: The matches are basically decided by goons and skirmishes.

Adding both melee and ranged armor like AOM to some units is something that should have been tested a long time ago along with tweaking the overall in-game concepts that makes hand units useless (speed, armors, range, bonus).

This way the natives function as an actual alliance rather then being something you need to spend resources on feeding and also addresses the issue of them being your entire army

I’ve said several times:

  • Create a new trading post exclusively for Native Settlements: A Native Trading Post (NTP) which would cost less than our Route Trading Posts (RTP). 150wood. It trickles a tiny amount of xp, lower than Church.
    All conditions of a TP apply to both NTP and RTP like “Advanced Trading Post” card.

  • Remove Native Embassy from settlers’ building grid and make it available EXCLUSIVELY as a travois /wagon/rickshaw from NTPs and Town Centers and reduce its cost (50w).
    It makes no sense holding a slot for a situational building locked by the construction of another situational building.

  • Remove “The Inventor” on Commerce Age and give us an actual useful Politician (The Ambassador, The Translator, The Emissary, The Guide…) based on natives : NTP wagon + native villagers, XP resource, healer, random resource depending on your civ, whatever…

Those three points alone would already hit the core of issues and improve them. Then it’s just balance and reworking/adding techs. There is absolutely no reason in spending 200w in a place far away from your base and still wasting 100w to train units closer to to your base.

3 Likes

Yup its me and yes, spending 200w to have a thing in the middle of nowhere that trains mostly mediocre units or even ‘as good’ units is never going to get used in serious play. Only way it gets used at all is if they are broken which is just as bad.

2 Likes

We do!
The idea is to put 5 technologies for each settlement so that it is as complete as those in Africa.
We should create another forum to polish European and Asian cibilisations also in the future.

WOAH MAN!! Nice to see you around man!

I used to be a lurker/ low poster in that forum. I translated the Fan patch 1.2 to Brazilian Portuguese.

2 Likes

SimilarOwl0320 Peachrocks5
Passive enhancements would also enhance their use and effectiveness. Only with the trading post built will you already have a bonus or a constant resource.
Above I put that only by allying with the Caribs your shipments arrive faster and cost less experience. (In case of being demolished you lose the benefit).

This would make them work more or less like the consulate for Asians.

How about my ideas so far?

Comanche

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Current technologies:

They are all good, but I will improve one:
Comanche Trade Language
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In addition to its current benefit, it generates a drip of experience while the alliance is strong.

New technologies:

Plains Hunters: Comanches are expert hunters and give you hunting tactics. (Food collection by hunted animals increases by 15%).

The Lords of the Southern Plains: Horse archers gain a bonus against villagers by 1.
Comanches are fierce protectors of their lands and will prevent invasions at all costs.

New unit:

Comanche Foot Archer: Cheap Archer Effective Against Infantry.

1 Like

Cheyenne

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Current technologies:

They are excellent but I would improve one to make it more attractive to use:

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Cheyenne Hunting Grounds: (passive improvement) The Cheyenne reveal the location of the hunting herds and also give you 2 bison every 5 minutes of play.
(In case of accumulating only allows 12)

New technologies:

Chief Pretty Nose
Her improvements would be more about the numbers and amount of soldiers the Cheyenne allow you to field - as she is Arapaho, not Cheyenne, calling for her aide would allow the Cheyenne to additionally train Arapaho Cloud Riders - imo, these would look best as powerful, short-ranged cavalry archers good against heavy infantry, making them more akin to mounted archers than the normal anti-cav that cavalry archers generally are.

Chief Roman Nose
His improvements would slightly increase the number of Dog Soldiers the Cheyenne could train (otherwise, no number of improvements would be able to stand up to an additional 8-10 units that Chief Pretty Nose enables) but then to also give a substantial boost to the Dog Soldiers. Might be interesting if he gave them a ranged attack with a gun, as he was a heavy proponent of learning European technologies and how to use them. Very intelligent Chief.

Alongside the unit changes, I think both Chiefs would also give a more generic, cavalry-oriented upgrade focused on their specific unit types - Chief Pretty Nose would give something like better cavalry damage, while Chief Roman Nose would probably give an economic bonus rather than a military one.

Note: Credit of this proposal on the new improvements to the user AnaWinters thanks for your information!
As I could not explain it better than him, I copied what he wrote to me privately.

http://www.assiniboinetipis.com/dog_soldier.html

We could have a new ‘gunpowder cavalry’ unit. Dog Soldiers would get a rifle.

There is a Cheyenne unit in another video game that has a firearm. This unit could be acquired in age IV because the sources that I have looked for the use of firearms by this soldier was in the nineteenth century.

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3 Likes

Fairly inaccurate to the Cheyenne. Give them the Dog Soldier as a trainable unit, have one of their upgrades be;
Plains Alliance
The Cheyenne rally their allies, calling for aide from either Chief Roman Nose or Chief Pretty Nose.
Chief Pretty Nose
Chief Pretty Nose sends an Arapaho War Party, consisting of X Cheyenne Dog Soldiers and Y Arapaho Cloud Riders, as well as enabling the ability to train Arapaho Cloud Riders, and increasing the number of Native Warriors trainable.
Chief Roman Nose
Chief Roman Nose allows the training of additional Cheyenne Dog Soldiers and unlocks X tech to increase the fighting ability of Cavalry units.

I’d also suggest the addition of an Arapaho trading post, but that might be a tad bit difficult as speakers of the language are few and far between. I’m even having trouble finding any.

4 Likes

I only give the idea and some historical reference to back it up. I’ve had to do a lot of research. The Cheyenne did indeed have firearms. It is inaccurate because I simplify it a lot and do not include lore. Thank you for your contribution!

1 Like

Ana winters has good insight on the natives and you should listen to them for what’s it’s worth. Not that you weren’t but yeah.

In overall terms, it may not be what you want to hear, I think the changes should be kept simple and changes be progressive rather then sweeping. Anything that changes a lot of things right away will be immediately rejected because of it being difficult to predict the balance effects and amount of effort to put it in the game. With African stuff it’s easy enough to deal with, ban their civs and maps but if standard natives become problematic that’s iffy.

That’s why I went for a more general change, then over time buff say 3 or 4 groups at a time. Especially the ones that are really bad and don’t get much usage.

However as I said for even that to work, I think non spear melee infantry need to be massively reworked. Otherwise they’ll be too strong to the point where you can a move them into anything or be useless like that are currently. It’s been a long time, but I still remember how op Dutch halbs were before their card got the infantry penalty.

1 Like

Cherokee

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This is a good unit!
Its improvements are good, but I will modify one slightly.

Current technologies:

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Sequoyah’s Cherokee Syllabary: In addition to its current buff, it increases the population limit by 5, and increases the villager limit by 5. (For settler’s cart by 2)

New technologies:

Chiefdoms: More complex form of government than tribes or bands makes Cherokee soldiers cheaper. (10% cheaper). It also generates a bit of experience while you are allied.

Flint corn: Crops produce more food thanks to this kind of corn. (+ 10% food production)

I don’t see the need to add a new unit because I think it would be somewhat far-fetched. If anyone has an idea, they can tell me.

1 Like

You could create a separate forum to discuss this problem. Mele units like the Zapotecs are very useless.

how do you post unit and techs’ thumbnails?

2 Likes

Only 2 technologies are required. The existing ones are fine (Although I proposed to rework one). The existing unit is good too, especially with the upgrade.

I proposed a new unit of ‘powder cavalry’ (Personally I would like to).

Give me your ideas to edit my proposal. :slight_smile:

I just realized that the slot allows a maximum of 6 upgrades. 5 is more than enough, but you can put one more in some cases if you want, with a total of 6.

There was a Comanche spear rider planned but cancelled for no reason, should finish this first.
Spear rider more fit with historical accuracy for their famous as well.
Better make campaign for them fighting with Spain, US and Mexico at the same time.

Klamath was famous for their archer, Foot Archer should give to them.
Every Minor civ should at least have 1 Cold weapon unit to prevent disgusting as Indian, 90% units are East India Company’s mercenaries or doesn’t even never exist.

2 Likes