[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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These forums that contribute ideas tend to be less supported than the forums that criticize.

What could this do? Give more resistance points to buildings …?
Was it used for construction too?
I have investigated and he tells me it was for the textile industry. I would like an argument in which the Tupi were related to the trade of this tree or something like that.

It would be good, but I don’t think that will be implemented.

It could increase the DPS (Damage per second) and give them the ability of stealth, and 2 points of reach.
It would be a costly upgrade to implement (age 4), but it is known that they were some of the best archers in history and used the jungle as a weapon.

Currently the upgrade ‘Tupi Poison Arrow Frogs’ gives 10% damage to all archers.
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I thought of a better idea. I will enable a buff where horse archers have a bonus against villagers.

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It comes down to different ways of seeing the game and wanting different things out of it. Many players just want the game to be about mastery through repetition and perfection and/or a fast clicking contest but neither of these things are strategy beyond the extremely basic level which in my opinion isn’t ideal for a real time STRATEGY game.

Myself? I want knowledge to matter more but I know I’m firmly in the minority. A lot of pro players have an extremely barren knowledge of anything outside the meta. Yet this very rarely if ever matters in most 1vs1 games. Some players get salty if the game goes over 20-25 minutes and they haven’t had their one or two skirmishers in the centre to decide who wins and have to GASP! Build mills and estates. How awful!

It’s incredible to watch how much certain player skill drops the longer the game goes and the more relevant obscure knowledge becomes. Sure mastering the same boring build order over and over has it’s place and should be a factor in player skill but in my opinion it’s far too dominant at the expense of game knowledge.

Some people argue that ‘it’s too hard to balance all the things in the game’ as though if something is imbalanced for a week the game is forever bad. Africa and Sweden have both been significant problems, I don’t disagree and I’d have brought the nerf hammer to them way before now but that’s a massive scale and I’d never propose anything so drastic and why I tend to be relatively conservative in my suggestions.

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Apache

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Excellent current unit and upgrades.
What could I add to them?

I can’t think of anything original. Also I think they are fine as they are, but one more improvement would not be bad. Raise your limit maybe …?

This is harder than I thought. I need the advice of a historian. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Meanwhile these are my proposals:

New technologies:

Guerrilla Warfare Apaches: Apaches gain +2 range. The Apahes avoided head-to-head confrontations by using ‘hit and run’ tactics.
I don’t know if this seems absurd, but the Portuguese dragon already does it, so I think it would be fine. (Available in age IV)
“Apache utilized guerrilla tactics in the face of United States and Mexican expansionist policies during the 1800s. Guerrilla – a Spanish term meaning “little war”-- typically refers to smaller, less organized forces to harry enemies with greater numbers. Tactics include hit-and-run raiding, ambushes and avoiding major confrontations. Apache warriors fought to sustain minimum losses while inflicting maximum damage to their enemies”.

"Apacheria": The Apaches use their territory as a weapon. The cavalry, and the trading posts have 2 more vision points and trading posts are built a little faster. (Available in age III)
“For Apache nations inhabiting “Apacheria” – ancestral lands, including present-day New Mexico and Arizona – the survival skills required to survive such harsh terrain also served as effective knowledge for fighting and raiding. As hunters and gatherers who traveled the blistering desert between water sources, Apache used dry food caches to store supplies along their routes”.

Currently there is a possible limit of 9 for this unit for each TP. I don’t think putting it up to 10 breaks the balance of the game.

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if you made all native units cost pure food and upgrades cost only food and gold it would already be a huge buff.

but I love this idea of increasing the amount of upgrades and utility that each native post gives you while reworking the useless ones. wish aoe4 has native trade posts as well.

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I thought there would be more people encouraged to do this arduous task, but hey. Now I’m a little less ignorant investigating native tribes.

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I have ideas for almost everything involving Natives and this is one of my ideas for the Native Lore card: “native units that cost food and wood cost food and coin instead.”

In theory it’s a good card but in practice it’s a bad one: a 600 coin card covers the cost of 95% of the techs and still left some gold for your general use.
It’s a really useless card right now. The Asian and African civs have better equivalent cards (as always) about that.

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Somewhere I have a sheet with a potential stat change and rework for all the Natives, but I lost it. No idea where, maybe I’ll find it someday.

The Comanche, Apache, Navajo, and Cheyenne are all my main focus, as they’re closest related to my own people - the Lakota.
Eventually I’d like to make a remake of all four. I think they could all be made very interesting, utilizing aspects of their actual history.

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There are some with very vague information, especially those from South America.

Could you also find out more about the Cherokee?
The most interesting thing I found was that they had a special type of corn.

I read about the Comanches that they traded in horses, but they do not elaborate. It would be nice if you found a historical argument that supports a mechanic that makes chivalry cheaper.

I didn’t find much about the Klamaths either.

You finish your research with the Native Americans, and I continue to seek information from the rest of Asians.

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Mapuche

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All current improvements are fine. But I will modify one to encourage its use.

Current technologies:

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Mapuche Treaty of Quillin: It could become a passive upgrade where it delivers 100 gold every 3-4 minutes while you are an ally. Immediately gives you 100 gold when upgrading. If the TP is destroyed, and you have already made the upgrade, you should wait the specified time after rebuilding the TP.

New technologies:

Anti-cavalry traps: Enemy cavalry and ‘shock infantry’ near urban centers are slower and lose 2 vision points.

Mapuche highways: While you are allied with the Mapuche you will be able to receive more experience from the commercial posts on the route. (Plus 20% experience on the trade route)

Butalmapu: Mapuche warriors increase damage, speed, and resistance points by 10%, and all forms of harvesting in crops and natural resources increase by 5%. (Available in the industrial age)

Potato Crops: Harvesting food in crops produces 10% more. An ideal tuber crop for the cold climates of the area.

Note: Because I found many qualities, I decided to add more improvements to them than the others. One of these improvements could be added in the second row because there would be no space in the third if all were included.

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I think Mapuches are mostly in non TP maps tho

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Araucanía has a commercial route. Maybe you mean the Gran Chaco. Think ahead, maybe they will include new maps that include Mapuches and a trade route at the same time.

It could be a tree from which coins are extracted instead of wood.

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Cheyenne:
Give them the Dog Soldier. The in-game model for the “Tokala Soldier” is legit one of the best examples I have ever seen of the regalia worn by actual Dog Soldiers, who are a very proud Cheyenne Warrior Society. Swap the model of the current Cheyenne Rider and the Tokala Soldier, and give the Cheyenne the Onikare upgrade. In return, make a new tech for the Lakota called “Iglúska” that enhances the Tokala Soldier and the Warchief somehow.
Also, personally, I’m overly fond of making the Tokala Soldiers good vs cavalry in my own mods, while the Cheyenne Dog Soldier retains its game’s status as the strongest lancer type unit available. It would certainly make the Cheyenne a Native worth allying with.

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I hope th devs are working on something. A complete overhaul. The pace of balance is now far too slow considering they are patching just two games.

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This is difficult without a historical advisor, but looking well you can have very interesting things to turn them into units, improvements or mechanics. After the developers’ love of the African DLC and DE itself, we are all very excited about the future of the game.

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I don’t want to believe an unique and important part of the game will remain rotting because they don’t have a consultor anymore. They can research by themselves like they did with USA too.

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Comanche lancer, as stated previously would fit this minor civ more accurately. Actually, going through Wikipedia link you posted and comanche wars, they were well known for their horsemanship, formed one of the fiercest resistance in the west, lasting 150 years. At their prime, they even formed some shape of empire on the southern plains. That’s why I was always wondering why their horse archers are so poor and even weakened in DE. As they drove Apaches from the plains in early XVIIIth century and stopped Spanish expansion, fighting with bow and lance, IMO they should provide one of the most powerful horse archers to be historically accurate.

So, the ideas of hunting buffs and the Lords of the Southern Plains techs are great and I back it up, but I’d see powerful (18-20xp) horse archer + decent lancer (16-18xp, good against infantry to not duplicate Cheyenne).

I’d even see them as a civ, a more extreme Sioux, cavalry-oriented with horse taming and breding for their eco, very strong early game, weak late. No serious defense structures, great riding abilities and a nomadic approach - pack town and move to the other place if needed. But it probably wont happen :frowning: Nevertheless, their units could get more buff and love.

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The idea was, not to be repetitive because the Cheyenne already have a pitcher. However, it could be a pitcher with another purpose as you suggest.

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If they could be used as a Civ (would be pleasantly surprising), maybe they could provide mounted villagers too, not too fast to not be op (like 6 speed), but to make them fending off the raids easier. They were famous of dodging the forces and hide in Llano Estacado. Also, the Kiowa natives could replace them on maps, yet another cavalry native, probably with horse archer to maintain the current status. Techs could be more adaptive to europeans, as they were less traditional than other plains natives (wearing raided clothes, top hats, etc). Kinda fun to see them treated a bit better TBH.

As for eco, they should rely on raids (maybe getting gold trickle for raiding) and controlling trade routes. As for combat, they should form a cheap, decent wood + food cavalrymen at age 2, then food + gold more elite mounted units (maybe something like Aztecs, but focused on horse).

Here’s more info of the Comanche warrior societies. Seems that Lobos were something like Dog Soldiers of Arapaho/Cheyenne. Good potential for mounted gunner special unit.

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I really like the spirit of this thread, but some of this feels a bit overboard. I’m very much on team “find a way to make natives relevant without making them op,” I just don’t know giving all of them 5 techs is the way to go. Maybe that’s a matter of personal preference, but I’d rather not drastically change all that much. That said, I’m not opposed to targeted changes to units and techs. In particular, Seminole and Maya stand out as lacking a tech each. If I might bend the rules, I’d like to address each:

Seminole
Seminole Bowyer - I agree with OP’s assessment that +15% archer attack for 250w 250c is underwhelming given the price and increasing it to +20% would be a nice buff. Alternatively you could keep the effect the same but reduce the cost to 200w 200c.
Seminole Guerilla Wars - I think this tech should still grant Seminole Sharktooth +3 multipliers vs buildings for their siege attack (x4 in total) but it should also give all archers +1 multiplier vs buildings (x2 in total). This would greatly improve the value and applicability of the tech without a) making it busted (hopefully) and while b) keeping the bulk of the effect on the Seminole Archers so they retain something of a niche. Now, if you really wanted to get crazy, this tech could also increase the range of archer siege attacks, though that’s probably overkill.
Unnamed 3rd tech - I’m not so strong on the lore so please bear with me. Most native tps have a mix of military and economic technologies, so I’d like for the Seminole’s 3rd tech to be economic. I suggest it should increase the gather rate of all sources of food (hunts, livestock, berries, fish, and mills) by 15% for 200w 200c. Think of this tech as the food equivalent of the Navajo coin gathering tech Navajo Craftsmanship. Going off that tech, this seems overpriced, so you could argue for adjustments to the numbers, but those are the finer details. In game, I think this works well since the maps Seminole are found on (Florida, Carolina, etc) tend to be high in natural food, so this tech can be put to good use. And since all civs need food, this gives those like Dutch and India who don’t make their own archers a reason to ally with Seminole (aside from making Sharktooth of course).

Maya
Maya Cotton Armor - gives +20% hp to hand infantry for 250w and 250c. Great tech imo, no major changes necessary. You could tweak the numbers if you wanted, e.g. lowering the cost to 200w 200c to bring it in line with Infantry Breastplate and Zapotec Cult of the Dead, but it’s fine as is. If I were stretching it, you could tack on +.1 melee armor (or I guess +10% after the last patch) but that’s really unnecessary in my mind.
Maya Calendar - improves the gather rate of hunted animals and mills/farms by 10% for 120w 120c. Another great tech, effectively Steel Traps and Seed Drill in one tech for cheaper than either. Again, you could play with the numbers, but I think the concept is solid as is.
Unnamed 3rd tech - For this tech, I’d like to reference one of the civ bonuses from AoE 2. A tech that reduces the cost of foot archers, say by 15%, could work but might be overpowered for civs like British or Japan. Moreover, it’s kinda boring for me. Instead, I think Maya’s 3rd tech should increase the gather yield of all natural resources (hunts, livestock, berries, trees, mines, and fish). My first thought is the effect should be just 5% and cost 100 of each resource. This would put it in line with Klamath Work Ethos. If you think that’s too low, I’m not sure the yield bonus should go higher than 10%. Though, perhaps Klamath Work Ethos should also be improved to 10%, and in turn Sufi Fasting to 15% or so.

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I understand that you have to be careful, but the natives are relatively easy to balance because they are available to both sides and they are very limited. Also when they are not close to your base they are difficult to control.

When it comes to adding new units and upgrades, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration compared to the natives of Africa. Obviously it could give problems at first, but almost everything that is new does.

In addition, history has shown that the tribes, despite not being powerful nations, have put many empires in trouble over the centuries, or on the contrary have given them the advantage. They were excellent craftsmen, excellent gurreros and many times they had technologies or knowledge that were absorbed by other cultures.

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