[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

I really like the spirit of this thread, but some of this feels a bit overboard. I’m very much on team “find a way to make natives relevant without making them op,” I just don’t know giving all of them 5 techs is the way to go.

I understand your point of view. But in my mind KaizerKlein, Soldier, GUA etc…would never waste time using the current natives that give one specific tech and one general tech, specially when they are so random. :sweat_smile:

But I’m with you when you say we shouldn’t be giving 10 techs and 5 new units to everyone. I’m very skeptical when read and give suggestions but I want to see what the community brings to the table and hopefully inspire some of the developers. :grin:

2 Likes

I think Minor natives should be a mix of general and specific techs, with enough disclosure,so you can feel compelled to use them. Therefore that’s how I would rework the Sufi:

image

War Elephants:
They are just a weaker/cheaper version of Mahout Lancer. To set them apart I’d give them a +0.25 speed bonus to make them more unique. Mahout’s speed is 6.0, so War Elephants would be +0.25 faster than Mahouts.

Current techs:

  • Fasting (200w, 200c): Villagers (and Fishing Boats) get -40% hit points but gather 10% faster
    Balance: Hitpoints reduced to -35% from -40%.
    Why: It’s without a doubt a very good tech, however it pays off when you have more than 30 villagers. Great coat and similar techs counter balance this “con”, but considering several cards and techs already boost gather rate, having -40%HP is just too excessive.

  • Sharia (100f,100c): Villager train limit +10%
    New effects: Villagers’ build limit +10.
    Each Villager you train from now on, gives you 10% more XP when you create them but provides 10% less XP to your opponent when killed (You gain 11xp and your opponent 9xp).
    Why: On paper it’s a cheap and good tech. In practice it’s an extremely circumstantial tech, even for Dutch and French. Those new effects are tiny (in line with the small cost) but give us a little more effect to justify the use. Perhaps going 12xp/8xp is a better effect.

  • Pilgrimage (250f, 250c): Ships 1 Fattened Goat for every 2 minutes the game has passed, up to 30 minutes.
    Effects: No changes. Good as it is.

New techs:

  • Sufi Elephant Endurance (150w, 150c): More experience in this holy site improves your training and growing your battle herds. You can train elephants better.
    New effect: All elephants gain +10% melee armor and +5% ranged armor
  • Why: This an example of how specific techs should be: It targets War Elephants specifically, but it also gives more reasons to Indians/Ethiopians, who (lore-wise) have a relationship with the Sufi.

“There were many military purposes for which elephants could be used. In battle, war elephants were usually deployed in the centre of the line, where they could be useful to prevent a charge or to conduct one of their own. Their sheer size and their terrifying appearance made them valued heavy cavalry”. War elephant - Wikipedia

New one on 15/10/21

  • Tariqa (300f, 300c): Living and practicing this stage of one of the 4 beliefs of Sufism, improves your practice of creating, growing and developing in the world. You can Age up faster.
    New effect: Advancing age is 30s faster for every age up you do. (It won’t go any faster than 50s which is almost the threshold of Exiled Prince/ The Messenger. It won’t work if you have sped up with Statehood or similar tech, it caps your age up at 50sec).
  • Why: This one is similar to USA’s Statehood but it is applied to every age up you do. I don’t feel it’s a very good tech but with balance, it might be a good technology because fast age up is 40sec and normal age up is 110sec (this one makes the latter and any other to be 80sec). You are essentially paying 150f/150c for Fortress and 150f/150c for industrial and getting half Statehood every age. On paper it’s a very good tech.

"A tariqa is a school or order of Sufism, or specifically a concept for the mystical teaching and spiritual practices of such an order with the aim of seeking which translates as “ultimate truth”. Tariqa - Wikipedia

6 Likes

Navajo

image
Good current improvements.

New improvements:

Manuelito-Hashkeh Naabaah: Navajo warriors with better attack and more resistance points. (Available in Industrial Age (IV)).

“Manuelito was a prominent Navajo leader who rallied his nation against the oppression of the United States military. For several years he led a group of warriors in resisting federal efforts to forcibly remove the Navajo people to Bosque Redondo, New Mexico via the Long Walk in 1864. After being relocated to Bosque Redondo, Manuelito was among the leaders who signed the 1868 treaty, ending a period of imprisonment in United States government internment camps and establishing a reservation for the Navajo. Manuelito was also an advocate for western education for Navajo children, with his famous quote, “… My grandchildren, education is a ladder. Tell our people to take it.”

Riding Adoption: Now the Navajo roam and fight on horseback. (Available in age 3)

“Other tribes had adopted the mount. From the southern plains, this new animal, this new " technology ,” this new way of hunting, fighting, and traveling had spread northward, from the Comanches, Jumanos, Apaches, and Navajos themselves. to the pawnee, cheyenne, lakotas, crow and a few more. Not all tribes fully embraced the practice; the Mandan traded horses in their agricultural settlements in the upper Missouri basin, but never embraced equestrianism. Is this one of the reasons why the Mandan almost disappeared from the map because of smallpox, a disease more harmful to sedentary communities than to nomads? Some historians believe so."
(It could be just to move, they could dismount to fight, or it could be another unit apart)

In the game they have firearms, I don’t know how historically accurate it is, but it is a unit that I enjoy using. I think it does its job well. This is what I found to support the firearms spindle argument, but it would be at a very late stage. Although I don’t know if they used them long before.

It may seem that I am exaggerating a bit with the gunpowder cavalry, but considering that many of these tribes were better horsemen than the Europeans and Americans, do not seem exaggerated. ¡Have to give them the honor they deserve!.

1 Like

That is the intention, that they are interested in this as much as we are. Sure they can look in libraries or consult with advisors. “The internet says it all.” The internet sucks for this.

Been thinking about the Nootka recently. They’ve become something of a meme for me, but in a good way. Still, it’s undeniable they’re on the weaker end of Natives, so I want to give them a touch-up within my minimalistic framework.

Nootka Clubman
Very lovable unit, just needs some minor touch ups. 85f 15w is a good cost, I like how food heavy it is, makes it easy to macro for. A 16 unit build limit is also generously high, though it might be fun to bump it up to a nice round 20. Really, what’s bothered me is how poor they are against cav. 12 base attack with a x2 multiplier deals a pathetic 24 damage a swing before armor. Compare with the musketeer, also 12 hand attack but a x3 multiplier. The Nootka should be buffed to match.

Nootka Bark Clothing
+50% vil hp for 125w 125c. Fine tech, no overhauls needed. Obviously not a tech one springs for early (outside of meme CDB rushes ig), but an extra great coats is always nice. Maybe you could reduce the cost somewhat, but the concept is solid. Maybe it also increases the hp of Nootka units by 10% but that’s pushing it.

Nootka Potlatch
300f 300c for -10% cost and -50% train time for Nootka Clubmen. Obviously a weak tech, though not unsalvageable imo. Taking all resources as weighed equally, to pay off the 600 resource down payment you’d need to make 60 Clubmen and only then would you see a benefit to the tech. Of course the train time reduction helps, but you’re still restricted by the build limit. More on that later.
Since the tech only affects the Clubmen, I think it’s fine to double down and make it even stronger. Instead of a 10% discount, I say it should be a 20% or even a 30% discount. This would pay off, rather than after 60 Clubmen, after only 30 or 20, and you’d be feeling the benefits much sooner. The -50% train time can also stay. What I’d add is also a +50% build limit (24 in total based on the current limit, 30 after my proposed change to the base build limit). Increasing the build limit, in addition to just increasing the mass, also lets you take advantage of the discount sooner. Now, that’s a very large effect, and some people might even say the tech should be made more expensive, which maybe. But I don’t mind, since at the end of the day all of this is being put back into the Clubmen and the Clubmen alone. And the Clubmen is still a mildly underwhelming unit, so I don’t mind giving them silly buffs, especially when it wouldn’t affect their performance in combat.

Loyal Nootka War Chief
200w 200c - unlocks the ability to train the Nootka War Chief. This guy is really what completes the Nootka package, but he could use some tweaks. As it stands, he’s basically a 2-in-1 Clubman with a large splash attack and slightly better siege. Fun fact: his build limit actually increases with the number of Nootka TPs you control. While he’s a beast, after 15 years of changes he’s become somewhat bland. Of course, all of the changes made to Nootka Potlatch would affect the Chief, just as the tech does now, but the Chief needs a bit more to make him pop. You could increase his stats even further, say to a 3-1 clubmen, but I think you could make some changes that are much more dynamic. As I see it, there are two directions you could go to overhaul the Nootka Chief:
Option A) One possibility is to turn the Chief into a Mansabdar type unit. He’d gain an aura that increases the attack and hp of all nearby Nootka Clubmen by 10% each. This would be a simple addition that would mean you could leave most of the Chief’s attributes the same as they are now, but dramatically increase his usefulness. One change you might have to make is putting a hard build limit of 1 rather than it being proportional to the number of Nootka TP’s you control. While afaik auras don’t stack like that, it would still be annoying to snipe one Chief only for another to be waiting in the wings. Otherwise, the Chief would still function the same as he does now, including being affected by Nootka Potlatch.
Option B) With the African patch, the Berber Sultan and Akan Tufohen have presented a new possibility for the Chief: turn him into a Hero unit. This would grant him standard regeneration, the ability to collect treasures, and also to build TPs and Native Embassies. He would also respawn on a timer at the military shipment point, as the Tufohen and Sultan do. Unlike the Tufohen and Sultan, I would not give the Chief a fealty aura, nor the chaos ability. Instead, I would give him an Oberhau attack. Like the Aztec War Chief, it would be an active ability which is double the strength of the standard attack with an even larger area of affect than the regular attack. In this instance, the build limit would certainly be set to 1. The Chief would not shadow tech, but still be effected by the Nootka elite, champion, and legendary upgrades. Another bit of balancing would be the addition of the Hero tag. This opens up the weakness to units with bonus damage against Heroes (spies, advanced scouts, ninjas, etc), but it also allows him to be buffed by home city cards targeting explorers (if they affect all heroes, which some do), by treasures that increase hero hp, and by the Capitol explorer upgrades Peerage and Knighthood. In this instance, I wouldn’t mind increasing the cost of this tech, say to 300w 300c, or else to 200f 200w 200c to match the Tufohen or Sultan.

Overall, I wouldn’t expect the devs to implement most of these changes. To speak nothing of balance, these would be pretty big overhauls even for my taste. But maybe even with these changes no one would touch them. After all outside of vil hp all of the bonuses from the techs focus back inward towards the Nootka units, which are still just melee infantry. Still, I think even just increasing the bonus damage vs cav and shock inf as well as increasing the discount on Nootka Potlatch would be a step in the right direction.

7 Likes

I loved your insight and suggestions and I think the same about them. I kind of commented some of the things you said in a past post too so I can say great minds think alike. XD

About Potlatch: I wouldn’t buff it. I would’ve reduced the cost by a bit instead. And I think most of the changes are valid for implementation, it’s just a matter of tweaking.

1 Like

Thank you for the kind words. I think either way to change Potlatch is reasonable, it’s really 2 sides of the same coin. Still, I think since its effect is limited you can go a bit overboard and reel it back as necessary. These suggestions are more about the general direction of the changes, the specifics are a matter of fine tuning balance so I don’t mind pushback, especially since I prefer not going crazy.

I think the game is getting good support. If they improve the ancient natives, they improve the game.
More units and more technologies do not hurt the most diverse game in the saga.

4 Likes

It’s not that I don’t expect the devs to update the game. They certainly will be making changes at least until the new unannounced civ is released. And they are willing to make changes to legacy minor natives. From TAD to base DE there were several changes made to a number of them.

What I am saying is I wouldn’t expect the devs to apply my suggestions to the game, even if they end up reading them. All of my proposed changes to the Nootka taken in totality I expect are beyond the scope of changes they’d see fit to implement, and I say that from a design standpoint rather than one of game balance. And, respectfully, I think my suggestions are among the more realistic on this thread, so it’s no slight to say even my own ideas are probably not in the cards.

2 Likes

I’m inspired today. One more:

JESUITS: Jesuit Mission | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom
image

NEW TECHS

  • Jesuits’ Mission Reductions (125c)​: Funding the goal of spreading the Jesuit missions provides planning, knowledge and reports of trading sites and native settlements. Also it allows your Conquistador to scout better.
    New Effect: For 8s reveal the line of sight of all native settlements, trading post sites and trading posts on the map. TPs are built 25% faster and Conquistador gain +2 LOS.
    Why:​ Focusing the lore of helping the colonization in their own way and the design of messing with buildings- Reductions is just a cheap/filler tech to enrich this Holy Site while keeping it clean and balanced.

The Reductions were Christian missions that extended successfully in an area straddling the borders of present-day Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina. The Jesuits attempted to create a “state within a state” in which the native peoples there would remain autonomous and isolated from colonists and Spanish rule. The reductions achieved a high degree of autonomy within the Spanish colonial empire. (Jesuit reduction - Wikipedia)

  • Jesuits’ Hidalgos (250w, 250c)​: The influence, money, pacts and heritage from nobility, make Conquistador having improved assets to unfold the new world.
    New effect:​ Conquistador gets +10% ranged armor and +1.0x bonus vs siege weapons.
    Why:​ Conquistador is an inferior version of Dragoon in nearly every possible way (more vil-sec, less damage, less hp) and nothing but stacking Native cards justify using him. Considering the role of anti-cav is jus too common, giving them more durability and improving the bonus vs siege weapons seems like one path to make them interesting and set them apart from Dragoons.

Some Conquistadores were born into hidalgo families, and as such they were members of the Spanish nobility with some studies but without economic resources. Even some rich nobility families’ members became soldiers or missionaries, but mostly not the firstborn heirs./ (Conquistador - Wikipedia & Hidalgo (nobility) - Wikipedia)

  • Cathecism (100w,100c): Jesuits teach the recipients of the catechetical work, teaching the recovering of buildings and advanced medicine.
    New effect:​ Buildings are repaired 20% cheaper. Priests heal units 20% faster including those who are not idle.
    Why:​ Another cheap tech that may benefit at long run. I stacked two effects so any of those ones alone would be just too weak.

Catechisms are doctrinal manuals – often in the form of questions followed by answers to be memorised – a format that has been used in non-religious or secular contexts as well. (Catechism - Wikipedia)

  • Former Armory (200w, 200c): Advanced armory from Conquistadores and soldiers in Jesuit Missions are available to your colony.
    New effect:​ Improvements from armory are 20% cheaper. Upgrades for gunpowder units, except siege units, cost 20% less coin.
    Why:​ I borrowed this from Age of Empires 2 (Spain). The Jesuits/spanish were always meant to mess with church, buildings and gunpowder.

I admit these last two techs make Jesuits too op but I just wanted to share my ideas anyway. I’m certainly moving at least one of those last two techs to another minor civ for balance purpose.

8 Likes

Interesting suggestions. Of course 7 techs in total would be overkill, even after the African additions. Out of those 4, the 2 I would add are Mission Reductions and Hidalgos.

At least Chief Nootka’s proposal should be implemented.

4 Likes

This might be slightly off topic but I have a general suggestion to buff all natives. The Elite, Champion, and Legendary upgrades should increase the build limit of native warriors. This is a pretty simple way to buff native viability while scaling the effect to prevent overpowered rushes in the early game. After all, the build limit is often the harshest restricting factor to long term viability of natives, since their mass can’t keep up. imo it should be +25% for elite, +25% for champion, and +50% for legendary, which in total doubles the base build limit.

Of course, this would be a huge boon to Ethiopia and Hausa, who shadowtech natives, but I’ve always thought that was dumb, so if this change were to be implemented I would also force African civs to research native ups like everyone else, and they would still cost influence to upgrade. I don’t mind shipments shadowteching tho, that’s consisted with legacy civs.

Another concern is the build limit doubles with every tp, so things could quickly get out of hand if one player has full map control. As an example, Great Plains has 3 tps each of Cheyenne and Comanche. Realistically, each player in a 1v1 starts with an in base Cheyenne post, so let’s say the max is effectively 2 and 3. Both the Rider and Horse Archer have a build limit of 10 per tp, so at max that’s 20 and 30. Now the bonus scales with each age so it doesn’t come in all at once, but in age 3 it goes up to 25 and 37, age 4 it’s 30 and 45, and by age 5 it’s 40 and 60. That’s 100 military units that take no population space. Of course, you still have to pay for all those units, not to mention upgrade them, but I think you can see the concern. Then again, the bonus comes into effect so late in the game, probably only treaty players would complain about it.

My last concern is from a design perspective. I think natives have always been intended as an auxiliary unit type; they shore up your main army by filling in holes in your composition. This change pushes them more towards being the core of your army, which contradicts a key part of their design philosophy. Again, the bonus is staggered but it’s still a factor to consider.

This is another change I doubt the devs would pick up, and while the full ramifications would have to be tested I do like the simplicity of the buff. And the way it’s chopped up means the effect will be felt most acutely in the mid-game, where natives currently are their least useful.

2 Likes

Maybe the percentages exaggerate it. You could increase the limit by specific numbers. For example, increase the limit by 3 when you make each upgrade for infantry units, and by 2 for cavalry units.

The type of Seminole Shark tooth Bowman’s changed from Archer to Musketeer.
The type of Caribbean blower changed from archer to assault infantry (ranged attack)The eagle warrior equivalent to the Aztecs

If anyone else saw the new PUP the devs have renamed the legacy Inca minor natives to “Quechua” and (hopefully) will include them on more South American maps. They were already on the map Andes - Upper, but I like making more use of them.

I’d like to see them try to rehabilitate the old minor Aztec, Iro/Haude, and Lakota settlements. I know that in TWC when they were introduced as full civs Zapotec, Huron, and Cheyenne were pseudo replacements, but I’m always interested in seeing them return, especially since they’re still in the game. They’re accessible in the scenario editor, and still found in the campaigns. In fact, I think Aztecs can still spawn on the map Amazonia.

Just as an idea of what to rename them, you could call the Aztecs the Tlaxcalans, the Iro/Haude to one of the nations within the confederacy, and the Lakota to the Dakota. Like I’ve said, not the strongest on the lore, maybe there are better options. I would accept minor liberties taken however if these 3 minor natives could be reincorporated.

6 Likes

I’d like to see them try to rehabilitate the old minor Aztec, Iro/Haude, and Lakota settlements

What for? Those civs have become main major civs and we got more minor tribes to compensate their turnover. All their techs and units were incorporated in TWC or migrated to new minor civs.

3 Likes

Let’s keep working on this forum and on others. Everything indicates that they are listening to us and they like what we propose.

4 Likes

I just like the idea of more options. And when the minor natives are already in the game it would only take a minimal amount of work to rename them. They just did it with Inca after all.

Though in a way it doesn’t matter. True you wouldn’t be able to play them on the ladder, but it’s easy enough to make a custom map with them on it. So they’re still accessible in game during gameplay, it just takes a little bit of effort.

They already did that when Warchiefs was released. Zapotec replaced Aztecs, Huron replaced Iroquois, and Cheyenne replaced Lakota.