My Proposed Changes for the upcoming balance patch

This is strictly my Ideas for potential balance changes in the patch that should be hitting this week. A lot of this is from prior discussion among the community, and not all ideas are originally mine.

Bolded words are to break up the changes into groups as they affect civs or individual techs.
Italicized words are my thoughts and reasoning behind each change.

Gold Discount increased to 20% or Gold Discount applies to techs as well as units
Ships gain +15% health instead of +10%.

This helps both their water and their land, potentially pushing their water up into the Italians/Vikings Tier

Genoese Crossbowman - Reduction in training time by 4 Seconds for normal, 3 for Elite
All Archer Armor Upgrades are free.
The Genoese Crossbowman is one of the longest built foot archer unique units in the game, and their land based play needs some early game love, without impacting the late game.

War Wagon - cost increased to 120 wood
Wood Bonus - extended to 20%.
Siege Workshop - 50% cost
the war wagon increase is to prevent it from becoming to cheap, as the unit is very strong as is, in light of buffed Wood Bonus, which should help boost both their land and water play.

I’m just going to go with the generic change for this civ, it’s easier to balance that way. others are in favor of other changes like giving Turks a tech to make their scorpion or mangonel line only cost wood but i believe this would either be two weak and ineffective, or too strong and game breaking. furthermore i prefer to keep the changes fairly Vanilla if you will.

Scout Cavalry line gets +1 Pierce Armor starting in castle age
Elite Janissary +20% accuracy

Gain Shipwright

Shipwright is to help put them on par with other naval civs and to hopefully increase the diversity in the water meta.

Cheaper Infantry Bonus removed in dark age. -30% feudal onward

I don’t think this needs much explanation. the Goths have quickly become a powerhouse, and the removal of supplies from other civs has only made them stronger.

Cataphract upgrade to elite cost -400 food.
Elite Cataphract gains +1 Pierce Armor
Free Town Patrol

Elite is very weak to archers and the upgrades are expensive, this helps. minor buff, nothing more.

Elite Kipchak gains +1 Damage

A slight buff to this civ

Elite Elephant Archer upgrade cost reduced to 600 Food and 500 Gold.

Leitis cost changed to 70 Food and 60 Gold.
Lithuanians starting Food bonus reduced to 100 food.
Lithuanians gain +100 food for every age up.

Many people feel the Leitis is over-performing. one of the glaring weaknesses of Lithuanians is the lack of long term economic bonuses. to compensate for the nerf to the Leitis, we give them a slight economic bonus totaling 400 extra food, granted over the course of the game

Hand Cannon
Hand Cannon +5% accuracy
+15 HP

I don’t think much needs to be said here. unit is squishy for its cost, and gunpowder in general is underutilized

Steppe Lancer
Attack Speed Buffed to 2.1
Attack buffed to 9 (+5 vs Villagers/Trade)
+1 Pierce Armor (0/2 total)

Elite Steppe Lancer
Attack Speed Buffed to 2.1
Attack buffed to 11 (+7 vs Villagers/Trade)
Gains +1 MA/+1 PA (1/2 total armor)
Elite Upgrade Costs 700 Food and 300 Gold.

Not much to say here, the goal is to make the Steppe Lancer a better raider then a Scout Line, at the cost of it having gold cost. ESL is too expensive for what it provides.

Supplies Cost reduced to 100 Food or Wood and 50 gold.

I don’t think this one needs much explanation. it’s expensive for what it provides.

Militia Line
Base Speed raised to 1.0
Makes them true trash killers.

Scout Cavalry
All scout line units gain the Eagle Warrior armor (rename it to scout armor?)
this allows most infantry UU and Militia line units to do bonus damage to scouts. This increases the power of Infantry unique units, and the Militia Line becomes true trash killers.

Please feel free to provide me your thoughts and opinions, this list may be subject to future changes.


This is the only thing I do not agree with, there is no need to touch the Lithuanians, at this point.


For Italians, I think Condottiero also need slight buff.
+1 PA and +4vs Eagles will be good. And maybe discount, like -10F.


baby steps, and i’d rather start with what the civ is supposed to be good at, versus a unit that affects team game balance too.

I agree

I would prefer Archers get +1 pierce armor starting in the Castle Age. You would have stronger ARBALESTERS than Vietnamese if you pay for Pavise.

It’s not necessary make them a siege civ but I like those changes. I would give them Elite Cannon Galleons because Turtles suck vs Fortifications

That would totally overlap the Tatar unique tech but I really like the Janissary accuracy change. I’d give them Pikeman and Elite Skirmisher

I disagree because other civs like Celts and Aztecs have good drush and it’s not a big problem in high level. Also Infantry civs rekt Goths

Cataphracts would be too strong. They have 2 weak points: Archers and their cost. I think it would be really op if they had +1P

I agree. I trained 80 Elite Kipchaks in a TG and they did nothing because they have no damage

And should be researched faster

I think the Leitis change is enough because +150 is not broken and very similar to the Mongol bonus. +100 food whenever a new age reached would overlap the Ethiopian bonus

I agree. Either extra hp or extra pierce armor

I agree

Good because it’s available in the Feudal Age but nobody researches it

I think their speed is fine

I have a problem with this. Infantry UUs would have bonus damage against Scouts. It’s fine for Jaguars, Shotels but not for Berserks, Woads, Axeman etc…

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I disagree, it is already faster than the 2HS itself, so it should not clash in role so much. Italians already get FU Champions, so there is no need to have another unit that does the Champion’s job.

This would be maybe too strong, but at least one between gold discount extension and improvement to 20% should take place. Another way to buff them on water is the switch between UT and hp increasing. Extra armor is stronger in the beginning. Another option is the university discount instead of the gold discount improvement.

My ideal buff would be: university and university tech are 40% cheaper and can research UTs.

awesome. Imo the best proposal

Very good also this one

I hope in a stronger buff

this can work for sure

this would be awesome. The second best proposal

fine, but I do not agree with letis nerf

everything buffing underused unit is welcome from me

I like this. But do they keep the cav one?

If this is implemented i would make it to start in feudal. Italians are weak there

Was planned for the December patch but it was cut because is esentiallythe Persian bonus *2.

Ethiopians have already that.

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If anything that Cumans need is Steppe Husbandry affecting Kipchaks and Genitours

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Oh! Thats a good change too but Kipchaks are trash in imp

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Nah, I think they would benefit more from having Bracer, and losing Chemistry.

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the fact that there are so many proposal for Italians says a lot on the civ: underpowered.

Regarding condos, I would pick your +4 attack vs Eagles. And I would make the imperial UT reducing the gold cost by 10/15g. Then I would remove the champion upgrade. At least Italians are forced to go condos vs meso… this compensates the fact that GC is usless vs meso.

But this has a lower priority with respect to reduce GC TT and extra bonus (either free archer armors or +1 PA for archers)

Why would be the only civ without Chemistry, just why??
and lacking of Bracer is the only thing that keep Cumans balanced.

Condo will be better at this than Champion, because is faster and can be quicker on place, also Eagle will have more troble running from them. Champion is Eagle killer, but eagles can simply dodge them. With Condo, it will be much harder.

So Condo will have second role, Eagle-hunter, and will be better choice against Meso for allies.

that would have late game implications and frankly, the Italians late game isn’t a problem. the weak spot for them is mid game. so i buff their mid game without impacting their late game too much.

they already are a siege civ. look at their team bonus and their siege workshop, literally the only thing they are missing is final ram and H scorp.

thats another option i had considered frankly, but it clashes with the civ identity.

not as much as you would think, numbers is a power all its own.

the +1 Pierce is something i’m very iffy about.

i’m okay with 45 seconds.

maybe but the civ isn’t even sitting above 50% winrate as is, i’m not nerfing such a civ without compensation.

this is another thing i’m iffy on.

Berserks and woads get a whole +3 bonus. Axeman +2.
Meanwhile the real winners are the Militia line who get +6 for Longsword and 8 for 2h and Champ.

its not both. its EITHER Increase unit discount from 15 to 20, or give 15 to tech.

yes, they do. it just allows Militia line and most infantry UU to do bonus damage against them.

so i should nerf the UU of a civ that isn’t even breaking 50% at the highest level, without some sort of compensation?

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Im still thinking good compensation will be give Lithuanians Parthian Tactics, allowing them to have FU CavArchers - what will make this Civ less one-dimentional.

they aren’t even that one dimensional though, because they have solid trash. but yeah, outside of trash and cavalry…

Lithuanians i think are held back because of the relic bonus.

Then starting in the Feudal Age

It’s crucial because Siege Rams are very important in the late game. They lack 2 technologies that’s enough to don’t call them a siege civ. Basically they have average siege with one boosted unit similar to Khmer (after the nerf)

They had Parthian Tactics during the Beta but for a good reason they removed that.