Nerf caroleans? A little too absurd? V2

I previously had made the 1st post about nerfing caroleans > Nerf caroleans? A little too absurd?
and the dev team had made some changes which was ok. Also I have been suggesting for russia to have a way to deal vs them. I have recently started playing some russia no matter the match to see where I could suggest buffs.

Here is a video showing some carolean vs strelet mainly

Have to keep in mind that even if I had the Guard upgrade for strelets that would push their hp by 30 points and attack by very little. While still having range disadvantage Caroleans [ Musketeer unit ] 15 range. Strelet 14 Range.
It is either Caroleans too strong? Or strelets too weak. Can devs do something about this?

I don’t think this is balanced in any way

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Some Russia main players (pending verification) here said no problem and I am amazing.

The problem of Russia is the 2 leather cannons shipment.

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I’ve got a good hunch that age 4 card that literally makes caoleans invisible is going get a nerf. It’s an absurd card

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Probably outnumbered you, because svea guard was sent. For a long time people have been asking that for the love of God nerfen that letter.
And give guerrillas to the Swedes to compensate, it costs nothing, stop giving the Carolines so many roles, they should have the role of dragons and that’s it.

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Strelets are good. In both treaty as in supremacy. People tend to forget they cost barely anything. 1 strelet shouldnt be able to beat every heavy infantry 1 on 1 otherwise if you play against Russia you might as well just not make heavy infantry.

A strelet costs a whopping 47 resources while a caroleon costs 100 resources. I dont really think one strelet should thus be able to beat one caroleon 1v1. In fact 2 strelets beat 1 caroleon who kills one strellet meaning Sweden player just lost 53 resources.

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One of worth noting is the resource income.
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you face 50 guards caroleans with their age 4 card with 40 veterans strelets, what do you expect ? this fight is quite normal, his army costs 3X more than you tho

But ofc the svea lifeguard should be nerfed definetly, too absurd yeah, especially with 15 of range and 6 infinte mams…

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You know, I have been playing Swedes lately. And I honestly think that the problem is not the Svea Lifeguard card, but the fact that Caroleans have way to much melee attack.

Like, Caroleans still loses gunfights badly to Skirmishers even with Svea Lifeguard on it (Not even counting if the Skirmishers have Counter Infantry Rifle research from the Arsenal).

The problem is, Caroleans will not fight with shots, they will get on melee and kill the Skirmishers. And I think this is what kills the counter system.
Skirmishers units are not really effective against Caroleans due (Like they should be) because of the fact that they have way too much melee attack and just charges at them.

Even if we remove this card of the game, Caroleans will still be able to kill stuff like Crossbowman, Strelets, Skirmishers, etc, that are in the game to counter they, because they can just charge at them.

Not sure if eather Strelets are incredibly underwhelming or Caroleans just busted.
Either way I would just increase the anti infantry strelet damage, aren’t Caroleans nerfed though?
Svea Guards need nerf then

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Please keep the talk about Caroleans, sweden & russia if possible, Let’s focus all together on a good way to let our devs know about this problem
Hello again. If they 1st video is not convincing because he’s probably industrial age and I’m still fortress. Then I’ll show one where he’s Fortress and I’m Fortress. Please play close attention to before I bring 2 canons he still outperforms strelets.

Like I had said in IV strelet doesn’t really have a great card like svea or a great upgrade. And we have to keep in mind that the way the game is played sweden has the eco to support spaming caroleans from 2 rax maybe 3 and they don’t really need any other unit while as russia you can’t really expect to spam strelet to beat that because 5 hakkapelis card or a switch into 5 or 10 husars or the classic 2 canon and you’re probably dead. And even if you get those small moments like the one in this video It’s just crazy he can take any fight agaisnt russia specifically

Carolean svea is strong but any skirm with x3 inf that has more range can trade just fine.

It just makes harder to rush sweden. But not necessarily a problem

Yes Russia strelets are cheap you can’t fight 1 on 1. I’m pretty sure I can fight 2 strelets with only 1 carolean in early fortress when carolean has 15 range and strelet has probably only boyars. The range itself makes them win And both have close to same speed so strelet has nothing unique.

My point is we can’t; really argue about cheapness when the unit can’t really fight or take proper trades for the cheapness to come out.

To win a fight either canons are needed or double the amount of caroleans with strelets but at what cost and how much time is needed? Keep in mind that the sweden quickly gets to fortress has like 40 caroleans and 2 canons That is just hard to stop.

I believe more more games need to be played What you’re saying is right but a unit with more range definitely has better time vs carolean. I’ve played with other skirms and I can say I don’t have that horrible time russia has.

Would that really fix the issue where caroleans can hit and run strelets? Let’s just take the example a guy gave above said 2 strelets can beat 1 carolean. ( to the small game knowledge that I have in a map as big as we can get in the ladder 1 carolean can run as far as he wants. Has close to same speed to strelet and has 15 range I could probably just out range strelets and win any trade ) But to this we add the ability to mass caroleans only @.@

Have to clarify Strelets get 16 range by imperial. But do I really need to count on getting to imperial where caroleans then have almost 400 hp?

closing point Talk is mainly because carolean being a musk unit can hit on all specially strelets. All other musk units barely go past 12 range and in high mass they do take fights vs strelets but you have the window of kiting and getting some advantage of the small range. Can’t really do it vs caroleans.

Carolean is just a broken unit in general that needs a nerf, strelets are fine as they are any buff to them would make them too strong against other civs.

What sweden needs is a change to svea to remove the range resist, 25% extra hp is enough. Infinite 6 mamelukes needs to be changed to just a 1 time card or infinite 4 mamelukes. The charge ability needs to be adjusted because it’s what enables caroleans to so easily beat their counters or other musk in age 2 without it they’d be much less effective.

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I know how frustrating is and yes (Mostly from Ashis speed) both Caroleans and Ashis should be nerfed, the Svea guard is broken, making units above their counters in AOE 3 (Learned this from Obsidian arrows and pre nerf Arambai of AOE 2) is flawed design (Spanish lancers the exception).

Anyway thanks you to be one of the few in this forum to bring us examples of real gameplay to see the issue.

I’d be interested in seeing the Carolean/Nizam Fusilier charge ability given to all musketeer-type heavy infantry (Euro Musks, Janissary, Ashigaru, Sepoy, Tomahawk). Call it “Bayonet Charge” for Euro musks/USA Regulars, and “[Insert Unique Unit Name] Charge/Assault” for everyone else.

Maybe tone it back a little for Caroleans so they get +0.75 speed during the charge, but +1 speed for the other musks (+.5 to Ashi if they stay at 4.5 base speed). The idea here is that musk-types get boosted to 5 base speed during a charge (not counting if Military Drummers has been researched at the Advanced Arsenal).

The ‘musketeers making a bayonet charge’ imagery is pretty iconic for the era AoE3 is set in, and it’s something people already kind of do when they put musks into melee to body block cav. Caroleans are unique enough that I don’t think they (along with the Nizam Fusiliers) need to be the only units in the game with this ability.

Of course, other changes should be considered (e.g., to Svea Life Guard), but this could take away a little bit of the unfair edge Caroleans have in battle against some civs/unit compositions. Thoughts? Or would this just make all the civs with musketeer-type heavy infantry too powerful compared to those that do not?

As soon as Caroleon stops to shoot Strelet the strelet will be in range to fire back.

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You are trying to counter an army of Guard upgraded units with a tiny underpowered mass of veteran skirms that NEED to be massed to be efective.

Of course he won… The problem are not the caroleans here.

You should have upgraded your Strelets to Guard and give them AT LEAST Strelet Combat and Boyars, otherwise they are really weak. After this you need to have at least a decent mass and not equal numbers, as they lose to equal numbers vs mostly every unit (and dont miss micro…)

ALSO, i know its an unpopular opinion, but SVEA is fine. People in this forum just think that unupgraded counters should mop the floor of a unit with 3 cards and guard upgrade… That is for me totally unrealistic. Want to kill caroleans easy (even with svea) research Counter infantry riflingand have similar numbers on the field.

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The leather cannon one shots every inf unit Russia has in age2. Not only does it make Sweden harder to rush, but it also makes Russia easier to defeat.

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Yeah, I will admit that only 2 weeks playing as Swedes might not be the best sample. :sweat_smile:

I guess what I’m trying to say is the problem is Strelets being bad in general, not Caroleans being particularly good at ranged fights. (I think that they are too good on melee thought)

Strelets loses fights because they are outranged to Skirmishers, Dragoons and Caroleans.

So I guess the problem is not Caroleans having too much range, is Strelets having too few range and Russia don’t having other option.

Because even if we nerf Caroleans ranged attack, Strelets will just still lose to Dragoons and other Skirmishers. So I guess Russia needs a Skirmisher unit.

Somedays ago I actually proposed a Chinese Mercenary Contractor for Russia to solve this problem. (Sugestion: Chinese Mercenary Contractor for Russians)

I think giving Russia a Skirmisher unit will be the ideal solution, and a lot of other civilization already have Mercenary Contractor that fill the gap of units that these civs don’t have (Lil Bombards to Portugal since they don’t have a Falconets, Fusiliers for Dutch since they don’t have Musketeers, and Jaegars to Swedes and British since they don’t have Skirmishers, etc)
So I don’t think is too absurd to give Russia a politician that allows them to create a good ranged unit (Iron Troop).

Thing about Ashigarus is that they have a quite bad melee attack. I actually believe that they are the only Musketeer in the game that loses a fight to a Hussar.

So they cannot realistic charge at Skirmishers like Caroleans do, since they don’t do nowhere near as much damage. They only can kite Russian Strelets and the Aztec Macehualtins.

But this is exactly why Strelets are bad. You need to upgrade they too much, and have a ton on the field (That ocupies a lot of population space), and they still have such a low range that they keep getting poked by units with higher range and dying for no reason.

I’m tellin you, to make Sweden balanced and fun to both play as and against, Caroleans need to be a WEAK but specialized anti-cav musketeer, like a foot dragoon. I think that’s what the original design was going for. Think of a Revolutionary, a musketeer that loses to other musks but can shred cavalry at range like a dragoon. That’s why Sweden doesn’t have a dragoon and also why they have age2 leather cannons and jaegers - for them to kill infantry with. I’m convinced this is how the unit and civ were meant to be played but Caroleans actually proved to be the most versatile musk in the game but instead other fun mechanics for Sweden was nerfed instead of the unit itself.

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Nah, I think the devs simply wanted to make a civ that only has “heavy” stuff. They originally had 2 heavy infantry and 2 heavy cavalry. Because of the lack of both skirmishers and dragoons, the 2 roles were simply tossed into the carolean. It turned out horrifically OP, so they took out the anti light cav part out of the caroleans and gave it to the xbow.

Regardless of how many cards are sent, caroleans have a weakness against light cavalry. However, this weakness is not intuitive. People don’t generally counter musketeers with light cavalry.

I think in certain match ups, Sweden might be a bit too favored, but I don’t think the carolean is to blame. Russia gets hard countered by both hakka and leather cannon.