Nerf Gurjras and other Indian dynasty

Charkam, shrivam rider this unit need nerf ? They too strong charkam need reduce range? And shrivam need reduce miss shoot from range unit. Now I see 3 new civil so OP .


They aren’t really all that OP, especially the Shrivamsha Rider, which actually might need a buff.


Really bonus more I can’t believe :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:. 5 miss from range unit it too much and too strong. While damage not weak

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As you learn the game, you’ll use control groups and use ranged units better. Once you do that, you’ll realize Gurjaras simply fall apart to Camel-crossbow or knight-crossbow combos and are quite weak against all-in eagle rushes. The early castle age is just average where they do their own crossbow-camel combo and once the game gets beyond 45 mins they lack pikes, skirms lack last armor and hussar lack blast furnace and thus they have very few unit options. Its only the mid-game they shine.
Chakram are good but they have low damage output till you have more than 30 of them and they’re also not that good against ranged units.
Right now the 2-week window’s win rates might seem inflated because some of their units are strong against 1-unit meta plays - Britons/Mayans/Ethiopians archers-xbows-1 or 2 tc imp full arbs, Ranged uu raids-forward castle-early imp treb castles down, Franks full knights and castle drops. This just means that other civs have to either play aggressive with 2-unit army combos and win early or drag them to the late game where they run out of gold and have no units to make other than hussars. And people still haven’t figured out the strategies against them.

Its strong when you face 15-20 crossbows at 30th minute. Early castle age big number of crossbows and halb-arbalest combos are very effective against those units. They just get shredded by all melee units.

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The Gurjara everything build

I recently experimented a bit with Gurjaras and figured out there is a 20 pop build that can be adapted to a lot of different openers while also being basically fully walled when hitting feudal.
The build is very tight, requires to get all 4 sheep in (not necessary i minute 3 but definetely at some point). Cause it is tight you might have to idle some of your production for a few seconds in feudal if not everything has gone “perfect”. The build is probably adaptable to make a 21 po maa / archer rush and an one range archer/spear play, but so far I only made:
1 Stable scouts
2 Range Archers
1 Range Skirms

The Adaption comes in play like 80-90 % into feudal where you have to relocate your lumberjacks from the stragglers to other ressources. This gives you a big advantage over the other civs as you can chose what you want to play just 2 minutes before hitting feudal opposed to early dark age.

The build requires you to lure the first boar very early and push in 3 deers. It’s possible to make this “normal” but the tc trick should help. Also you will need to drop of food a few times in dark age. And you shood scout a bit with your 4 starting sheep to find your mill spot asap. So the build isn’t for beginners.

The build will on optimal play leave 1 berry bush under your TC that you can use to que your vills on in feudal when you build up food eco.

Build 2 houses - relocate 1 vill after a few secs to a berry bush under the TC
Que all your vills to that berry bush - find your berries, make a mill, queue that vill to that berry bush under your TC
the 6th vill lures the first boar - it should come in before the berry bush is fully depleted, leave 1 vill to finish the bush and queue it to the boar
whenever ready start pushing your deer and lure the 2nd boar when it fits
vills 7-9 go to stragglers
vill 10 makes a house and then a lumber camp at a woodline. send vills 7-9 to that lumber camp, too
vills 11-16 all go to the hunt under the TC
vills 17-19 can be sent to wall quite shortly you should have enough wood to make a barracks. build in total 3 houses in your walls, that is enough
When the hunt under your TC runs out queue all the vills to the stragglers. you need to chop all 5 of them
make loom and go up. you should have about

When the stragglers are chopped you have to distribute your 12 straggler vills (best you make it in little steps of 3-4 vills):

  • 2 Range Archers: 8 on gold mining camp, 4 on berries (1 more on gold and berries is required at some point to sustain production)
  • Skirms: 2 Farms, 5-6 on berries, 2-3 on wood
  • Scouts: 4 Farms, 8 on berries

When hitting feudal you should be able to make the required productions buildings and dba
Try to makro from that on so you make horsecollar + 2nd lumber camp at some point before placing more farms.

I will probably also make 2 build variations for 21 pop maa/archers and archers/spears at some point.

These builds are imo only viable with Gurjaras, no other civ can have as many ressources+income at the beginning of feudal as them. Only the scout play feels a bit “weak” in comparison to other civs as they have a bit less “free” food than other civs. But the proposed 20 pop build makes scout play viable even without eating your sheep.

The disadvantage of the build is that it is very vulnerbale to drushes.


Having played a lot of gurjara openings some comments:

Why? Unnecessary idle time early on. Just leave the vil on the mill (also way better for building next houses)

If people struggle with early game micro thats how you need to do it. But the optimal way really is to go for pushing dear first and only go for boar afterwards (at least after 2 deers if you need your scout to be elsewhere at that point).

This is just horrible efficiency. Just put 5 vils on second lumbercamp. You will make for that 100 extra wood in no time. If your approach is open double range either delay second range (you’ll get it early enough with that build) or put more vils to lumber camp early on. But having more than half of your eco on straggler trees will just end of being super messy. Imagine your opponent drushes you at that point, you’re probably dead already.


I tested it, the build only works this way. Otherwise your eco will be a mess when reaching feudal. (Or you have to go 21 pop)

I like to scout first, but ofc if you can and have found all your sheep you can do the deer first. It’s just my way to do it.

Again, doesn’t work. It’s a practical issue. I chop the stragglers cause I want to distribute the vills afterwards and they are already under the TC. I’m fine with losing like 30 ressource, the good eco setup you end up when doing it this way is totally worth it.

Actually, having that much on stragglers helps against drushes…
You also should have enough res to make some militia yourself to defend against drushes, though then you need to adjsut your eco setup to compensate for that.

Edit: If the res efficiency is so important you can possibly use the 17th vill to make the 2nd lumbercamp (need to check if the res are there) and begin walling later. this should also work, make the build less “tight”, but your walls won’t be up as early then. You still won’t be able to circumvent chopping some stragglers.

That’s why you push deer first. It’s a way cleaner build this way.

Well this rather negates the good eco setup. If you have 12 vils on straggler trees you’ll lose a lot of res. Also you wanna put vils on stragglers later on to make farms with them. If your stragglers are gone that’s super awkward.

How so? You can’t move out safely.

I get the idea of your build. If I understand you correctly the advantage of that is being able to adapt quickly. But I feel like most of the time you have a rough idea what you wanna do and unless you go archers (you probably won’t do maa with this civ) you’ll open similarly anyways. Imo this build sacrifices a lot of efficiency and might make your life really akward for some adaptability that you can make up by proper scouting and thinking ahead.

But generally I’d say there is gonna be a lot of possible builds with that civ and there’s a lot to be figured out yet. So in that sense all my comments are preliminary. They are based on my experience with that civ but there might be better ways. I’m not even sure what’s the best build with them (at least on open maps where you need to adapt earlier on compared to fc builds).

Everyone: Franks and Mayans are too strong and have too high win rates! Also the crossbow/knight meta is too stale!

FE Devs: Introduce civs that have unique playstyle and are weak vs longswords. New civs are high on win rates because they were designed well

Everyone: Oh no! I don’t know how to counter that new playstyle and I don’t want to adapt to it, the new civs must be OP. I only want the known civs to be 55% win rate, if new ones are 53% win rate they need to be nerfed!

Maybe a little exaggerated, but it is still way to early to jump to conclusions. Win rate stats are not representative for how good a civ really is (e.g. Saracens)


I made an adjusted buildorder that solves your “critique” points with the inefficiency. Note that this is the build for 21 pop maa archer rush. The other builds are also possible but then you need to push only 2 deers as the 3rd deer would give too much food. I will possibly make a detailed description how to adjust the build when you want to open scouts, archers or skirms.

Build 2 houses - relocate 1 vill after a few secs to a berry bush under the TC
Que all your vills to that berry bush - find your berries, make a mill
the 6th vill lures the first boar - it should come in before the berry bush is fully depleted, leave 1 vill to finish the bush and queue it to the boar
whenever ready start pushing your deer and lure the 2nd boar when it fits
vills 7-9 go to stragglers
vill 10 makes a house and then a lumber camp with vill 11 at a woodline. send vills 7-9 to that lumber camp, too
vills 12-15 all go to the hunt under the TC
vill 16 builds a house and barracks, starts walling
vills 17+18 go to the hunt under the TC
vills 19+20 can be sent to wall. build in total 3 houses in your walls, that should be enough
When the hunt under your TC runs out send 5 to the mill berries, 1 to the berries under the TC, 1 to the Lumber Camp and the remaining 4 to stragglers. When you have 100 wood to your disposal build a mining camp with 2 of them
make loom and go up. It’s safe if you made 1 militia before clicking up, but if you have enough food you can already make the 2nd militia. while going up - make the 3rd militia
when you are about 3/4 up to feudal move the two from the stragglers - 1 to gold and one to berries under TC

When hitting feudal you should have enough res to make a vill, DBA, MAA and an archery range (maybe wait a few seconds)

As you see this build is way more complex than the original one, which I intentionally designed to be as easy to learn as possible. Even if this build is most likely better, it’s way harder to learn cause you don’t have the simplicity of “when the stragglers are chopped down distribute your vills like this”.

This 21 pop maa archer build is even more tight than the original 20 pop build, expect some idle time/waiting for certain upgrades to have the res for.

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Cool! Tbf I think this civ is a bit like chinese in that it’s simply not easy to make perfect use of that bonus.

Is maa a good approach with gurjaras to begin with? I always thought of the bonus as better suited for playing scouts or straight archers as garrisoning the mill will prevent you from getting a lot of food early on.

I think we need to figure out.
One advantage of that build is that you have 6 on the berries so if you get a food shortage at some point you still can just ungarrison your sheep 1 by 1 to continue producing vills.

Imo scouts is actually the weakest opener of gurjaras, as you basically need to make 20 pop and even then it can be awkward. Maa is probably ok because you only make 3 + the upgrade.

Thing is currently nobody really expects maa openers from gurjaras so there is also some surprise effect involved.

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Only Indian civ which probably needs a nerf are Hindustani (Ghilman mostly), but other don’t lol, if anything Bengalis and Dravidians need buffs.


Happened to me yesterday. Lithuanian pre-mill 2 militia drush. Absolute chaos, no balance in economy. 200S, 700F, 50W, 5G. Then 1 min later, I have 32 lumberjacks and 0 on food.

Saracens: You missed me, baby?
Oh wait. 50 wood means no market either.

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I tested like 10 times how to make the build work for a scrush.
It’s really not that easy.
The best I have found is using vills 17-19 to wall, make 20 pop up (need to drop food in the TC) and then from the 10 vills under the TC send 3 to your 1 lumber camp and 7 to berries.
With this income you should be able to make the first 3-4 scouts uninterrupted but then maybe get some idle time. You probably also will eat 1-2 sheep from your mill to sustain production.
But if you send basically every vill to food from the beginning of feudal (use the berry bush under the TC until you have horsecollar), make always farms when you can you can get a healthy eco setup at some point.

As I said Gurjaras somewhat struggle with scout openings weirdly enough. Skirm should be way easier, it’s basically the same exept you split your hunters in 6 foragers + make a 2nd lumber camp with the remaining 4. This should be way easier to sustain, cause you need only about 2-3 more on food at your TC.

For 2 range archers you probably need to chop some of your stragglers. Need to check how much.

It’s really interesting that this kind of food bonus like lith, tatars, mayans… seems to synergize very well with archer play, but not so much with scouts. Normally you would think “food bonus => good for scouts” but it’s way better for archers actually.

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Well mayans eco would be pretty good for scouts if you had them. Since they don’t and they also have cheaper archers you go for these ofc. Tartars are pretty good for going scouts if you decide to go that route and lithuanians are good if you don’t just use the food to get up super early. So it’s a matter of how you use the extra res.

And gurjaras problem in going scouts simply is that you have might have a super strong food eco but as you lack your sheep that food doesn’t come in very fast. I think I only went once for gurjara scouts but it felt pretty strong (tbf I pushed every single deer iirc).

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I can at least understand Hindustanis and Gurjaras being referred to as OP by the standard Franks, Britons meta players (though top tier would be a more suitable word), what’s the 3rd new civ that you considered OP? Both of those are one of the worst civs ever made

Understand the sentiment. Actually its the opposite. Community is divided into the meta and universal S tier civs hating people like myself and the S tier picking meta players who try to perfect the same knights/crossbows by playing it 10000 times. So people like myself and many others who want to play random but can’t because of the meta, like the new civs like Gurjaras, Poles with a different playstyle and compete with the meta. And the Frank/Briton/Mayan pickers hate them because there exists a new counter to their all-in knights+castle drop or one-tc imp arbs meta play.

Yes that’s an absolutely disgusting behavior by these people. They got everything except the legacy S tier civs nerfed. Khmer elephants check, Lithuanians relic bonus check, Indian camels check, but any nerf suggested to Franks - noooo, what will poor Franks do without one of those ridiculously powerful bonuses. How will they maintain 55% winrate and 10% pick rate and S tier status on almost all settings.

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I agree that Franks, Mayans etc probably need to be nerfed at some point (besides that franks probably will just naturally lose a bit of prowess the more experienced the community becomes.

But nevertheless the winrates of gurjaras and hindustanis justify nerfs. They are outside the 55 % range for a lot of different setings and elos.

And Gurjaras are still not figured out completely. I tried my best with these buildorders but it seems it is still improvable, besides they are already insanely strong.

What I tried today was some arena play with gurjaras but I havent found the “perfect” setting yet.
I made one quite interesting build whith 27 + 1 + loom pop into castle drop + 2 TC boom. (a low amount of chakrams + a few mangonels until going up to imp) It’s a kinda uncommon strat but I wanted to make something different than the usual arena strats. I think it’s kinda cool build. But cool <> successfull always 11
The other I’m not happy with yet, I tried to make a 20 pop scrush and then use the sheep to hit a competitive castle age timing. But I havent found a good eco setup yet. I usually end up with way too many farms and a too long delayed castle age timing… I will no try a build where I put more on gold and buy the way up (still eating the sheep to boost the timing aswell). I have no idea what I actually did “wrong” with my build, i thought eating the sheep in feudal to boost the castle age timing should work really nicely. But it’s seemingly more complicated than my arabia builds.
(Which may also just be because I usually don’t play arena…)

Wait I’m confused. The pop 20 scouts is arena build? Why would you do that? I can give you go a good 25+2 light cav into boom one but I guess that’s too conventional for you 11