New Civ concept: the Venetians

Mmm I don’t think that it’s medioeval by the sound of it, but it might do it.

I’ll researching in the meantime.

I’m still searching for a adeguate jingle, but since most of the sources are books, those of course don’t help much…

I’m also always thinking about the balance for the civ, especially for the stable.

In the latest design, I practically copied the britons cav tech tree, so no bloodlines paladins and hussar, but usable cavalier and LC.

I was thinking thought that this put them at a disadvantage in castle age, with knights without BL. Now, I was undecided between:

  • Option A: giving them cavalier, light cav and no BL
  • Option B: giving them BL for FU castle age knights, but no cavalier

Considering their FC potential with extra gold, which option would you prefer?

  • Option A: cavaliers with no BL
  • Option B: knights with BL

0 voters

I personally prefer the first option, what is now in the design, but I still have a doubt, that’s why I’m asking for your opinion.

I think this heavily depends on their light cav.
Did venetians field a lot of light cav?

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Historically, yes.

The stradioti, venetians balkan and albanian merchenaries were precursors of the modern cavarly tactics, and quite successfull too.

But with 90HP halbs for the late game, maybe giving them BL isn’t the right thing to do. Also, the stradiots are already their UU, and even if it cost gold it act as a good substitute.

If the venetians would ever be introduced in the game, here are the varius missions on already existing campains where the venetians should replace other civs (in order of relese):

  • Barbarossa - The Lombard League (4)
    Despite the name and being already indipendent, Venice (Purple) was a member of the league, and in fact is represented (even if geographically and historically incorrectly) in the mission, so they should use the venetin civ.

  • Attila the Hun - Fall of Rome (6):
    Aquileia (Red) should be played by a venetians AI. While tecnically they still didn’t exist any venetians at the time, the city will be soon founded by the refugees of Aquileia and Altinum that fled the cities during the invasions of Alaric, Attila, and later on the lombards, so it fits for them to be there.

  • Battle of the Conquerors - Lepanto:
    While the commander of the expedition was spanish, more than half of the fleet actually was venetian. The war started with a contention over the island of Cyprus between the ottomans and venetians, and were the venetians to bring the galeasses to the battle, so it fits that the main player (Red) use the venetians civ. It would also be a good way to let a new player try the civ, without buy it first.

  • Alaric - The Belly of the Beast (3):
    Here again we have the city of Aquileia (Blue) which will contribute to founding the city of Venice. Here, even more than in the Attila campaing, the city is even surrounded by water, the sea and a lagoon, almost to represent what it’ll become of its inhabitants.

  • Sforza - Mercenaries and Masters (1):
    Venetians (Cyan) and Brescia (Green)

  • Sforza - His Own Man (2):
    Malatesta forces (gaia)

  • Sforza - Blood and Betrayal (4):
    Venetians (Cyan)

  • Sforza - Viva Sforza! (5):
    Venetians (Cyan)
    There isn’t much to add here, the venetians being a major power in Italy at the time is of course almost omnipresent, and so a player called “venetians”, a venetian condottiero or a venetians controlled city shoud use the venetian civ. This would also add a bit of variety to the campaing missions, which desperately needs.

  • Francisco de Almeida - Estado da India (4)

  • Francisco de Almeida - A Son’s Blood (5)
    While here there isn’t really a venetian player, the venetians are often mentioned in those missions, so they could be added as a new player (there is the room for them) or they could be represented by some units.

  • Tamerlane - Harbinger of Destruction (3):
    Italians merchants (Blue) could be venetians, since the city in question, the Tana, was founded by venetians mechants and explorers, among them some relatives of the famous Marco Polo. Now the city actually changed hands between the venetians and the genoese more than once, and while we don’t really know who controlled the city when it fell, this was after Genoa lost the war of Chioggia, so it’s safe to assume that the venetians controlled the city, at least nominally, when Tamerlane arrived.

  • The Hautevilles - Bohemond and the Emperor (3)
    The venetians actually participated in this war, even if they are represented by any player in the campain. Anyway, the Melissenos player (Byzantines - Green) should at least use the new venetians UU the stradiots, since they come from that region, and the byzantines emplyed them a little before the venetians.

As you can see, the venetians would be quite present in old campains, and at the same time they would have their own campaing too, (I discuss it some posts ago…).

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This post is meant to be both a summary and the post used to participate in the civ contest that @casusincorrabil is organizing.

AoE Venetians Civilization Design:

CivIcon-Venetians

Civilizations Concept:

Bonus:

  • Receive +50 gold after researching any technology (including age ups).
  • Archery range units are 5/10% faster in feudal and castle age.
  • Docks and barracks costs -75 wood.

Team Bonus:

  • Guilds is 80% cheaper and available in the feudal age.

Unique Technologies:
III - Schole: villagers generate an extra 5% gold when dropping any resource to a building nearby a monastery.
Cost: 300 wood 300 stone, 30 sec
IV - Schiavona: barracks units (militia and spear lines) get +30 HP.
Cost: 600 food 300 gold, 40 sec

Unique Units:
C - Stradiot: light cavalry that can stun enemy units with a special charged attack. It have a small bonus damage against knights and cost only gold.
Cost: 80 gold, 14 sec, 800 food 400 gold for Elite
D - Galeass: heavy ship that with a short range gunpowder attack. The ship can ram other ships, dealing massive damage, and without 1/3 chances of converting the ship to your side.
Cost: 120 wood 80 gold, 40 sec, 700 food 500 gold for Elite

Tech Tree:

Baracks:

Docks:

Archery Range:

Stable:

Blacksmith:

Monastery:

Siege Workshop:

Defenses:

University:

Economy:

Castle:

Wonder:

The Basilica of Saint Marco and the Dogal Palace

NOTES:

  • The dock barracks discount can be nerfed to -50 wood if it’s too strong.
  • Archery range units could also receive +15% speed in imp if deemed necessary.
  • The main idea for the civ is to use the free gold to either fast castle or drush into archers. The free gold allows you to delay putting vills on gold, having more vills on food and wood. In the late game, it overall gives you a bit more gold than your opponent, allowing you to either spend it into your UUs or to train more siege during trash wars.

Campaign:

I’ll summarize here the 6 missions that I thought of for an eventual venetians campaign.

In my mind, a campaign about venice should be through its entire history, and not just about a singular moment in its history. So here are the 6 missions:

  • The birth of a legend:
    Set in the last years of the Western Roman Empire, you control a small group of survivors and refugees that are trying to escape from the goths and hunnic invasions, seeking shelter in the deep lagoons. The scenario starts with you besieged by none other than Attila in the city of Aquileia, and you’ll see the downfall of cities like Padua and Altinum too, while every village you’ll find is under pressure by goth raiders, and there is no safe place until you reach the islands of the lagoons.
    This scenario is based around the mith of the foundation of Venice, which is actually a more gradual process, but still it’s a nice mith and callback to the Attila last mission campaign.

  • Finding its place in a new world:
    Here the venetians struggle to survive in a new age, with a even more distant and weak Easter Roman Empire, and with the even more eager lombards, the venetians needs to find its own space, and save their prosperous trade networks.
    Besieged in your main coastal settlements by the new longobards, you might need to fall back on your smaller settlements on the islands of the lagoon, where you can find protection behind your fleet. But right when your enemy is defeated, you’ll find out that the even more threatening giant of the franks kingdom is looming on your islands, and you’ll have to fight for your survival by burning the enemy fleet, and conquering their inland fortifications.

  • Pirates and merchants:
    From a river regional power, you are even more evolving into a sea trading empire, but the cities of the Istria and Dalmatia, once under the ERE, are threatening your interest with piracy and competition. You simply cannot accept that, goods can be sold by everyone, but they have to sold them in the city of Venice.
    In this scenario, you’ll have to put under your banner every city in the balkan Adriatic, either peacefully or by force. You won’t have a city, but conquered cities will allow you to trade resources, use their blacksmiths and universities, and train condos and stradiots. You’ll also timely receive reinforcements from Venice with ships, archers and siege.
    Once the pirates and cities are conquered, you’ll need to help the byzantine dealing with the normans invasion, by burning down their fleet and docks in Apulia, while also settling down the rebellion of the city of Zara, aided by the Hungarian kingdom.

  • Old alliances:
    In the most shameless point of the history of the republic, you’ll lead the crusader knights into siege of Constantinople itself, the city that should owns your fidelity.
    With your allies, you’ll defeat the byzantine army and varangians, and then install your puppet emperor. But when even him can’t satisfy your hungry for gold, and your supplies are running low, you’ll breach the city seawall, and set the city ablaze, pillaging every house, monastery and market.

  • The most serene city in flames:
    The rivalry with Genoa is something that goes by since centuries, they are your main and most dangerous maritime power, and now they occupy your main dock on the entrance of the lagoon, while Italian and Austrian allies besiege your from the mainland, but you won’t give, and a long siege awaits you.
    You’ll have to fortify the canals and sandbanks, and fight in a weird battle of ships and soldiers alike. Your city is called the most serene for its wealth, and so you start with a huge amount of resources, but no natural resource besides fish. All resources needs to arrive in the city either by the northern rivers, or by trading with the venetian Istria.
    Then you have to raze to the ground the city of Chioggia, occupied by the genoese, in order to beat your hated rival.

  • The downfall of the Republic:
    No one could withstand your rise to power, not the pirates, not the byzantines, nor the other Italians states. Not even the Pope and the kingdom of France could stop you with the league of Cambrai, but now, a rising star to the east is treating you. The ottomans conquered Costantinople, and while they can be good trading partners at time, now they eagerly look at your Mediterranean holdings, in particular to the island of Cyprus. The Republic is not anymore the power that once was, but you won’t go down without a fight.
    Here you’ll play in the hopeless defense of the city of Famagusta against the ottoman siege. You’ll start with a sorty outside the walls, for then retreat and protect the city from even more aggressive attacks. With few resources and only the sea as a supply line, you’ll need to resist the most time that you can, until all your walls are destroyed by enemy mines, and you cannot build anymore anything. To win you’ll need to survive at least 30 minutes, but then scenario then it won’t end, you’ll just keep fighting until you have strength for a relief force that will never arrive, but that will avenge you in the battle of Lepanto.

Brief History of the Venetians and of their Bonuses:


The flag of the Serenissima

The history of Venice is something that always fascinated me. A small city build by refugees on the water, and without large territories behind it that became a world power in its apex.

The city as already said founded by the WRE refugee of the province of the Venetia, that processes partially started with the invasion the goth and huns, but in reality it was the lombards that really forced them to settle there.


Reconstruction of a venetian village in the lagoon in the late antiquity

The city became rich thansk to its natural ports, and to their ability to navigate the lagoons if the Adriatic. This allows them to navigate the northern Italy rivers where there was an abundance of wood, and to sell them to merchant ships of the ERE. The byzantine themselves called the venetian region the great emporium of the empire. From this, comes their cheap docks and barracks bonus, which represents their natural docks, their early wood abundance.

They also were skilled sailors and merchants of course, this is what they are famous for. This is represented by their early and cheaper guild tech, which allows you to have better market prices. The venetians in fact became rich thanks not because of their merchants alone, but because the Republic imposed that every goods in the Adriatic have to be bought or sold inside their city. That made them rich thanks to the taxes, but also because they always controlled the flow of good, in particular salt and grain, which meant that they could starve the Adriatic and the peninsula when they wanted.

But venice wasn’t just a merchant Republic, it was thriving with artisans and skills laboratories, which transformed and sold the goods that passed by the city. At a time, that was the main economic entry of the maritime empire. This is represented by the gold bonus after each technology, to represent the wealth accumulated thanks to the its artisans and their technological advancements, worth of note, was in particular their arsenal, capable of producing 1 ship per day, thanks to its laborers, the arsenalotti.

Such artisans often gathered in the most nearby church, and formed brotherhoods that regulate and formed the new entries, as well as paying assurances for its members unable to work or their families. Such congregations were called schole, or schools, and thanks to their taxes and external donations, they were very rich, and could finance the state of Venice in time of crisis with loans.

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The arsenal, the first industrial mass production facility of the world

Being a maritime republic, the venetians were of course a city of sailors. This is represented by their wide tech tree for ships and foot soldiers. Venetians sailors in fact were hardy people, able to fight both on land and on ships, and capable of quick and lighting amphibious campaigns. Their weapon of choice for the naval warfare was of course the crossbow, but they were able to fight even on foot, and were often well armored. The state in fact often payed for set of armors that was then put aside in ships for the battle. That way, even the sailors and the rowers were able to have a piece of armor, at least a steel pectoral and an helmet. This is represented by their schiavona UT, which also represents the huge chest sword used by their troops.


Venetian soldiers through the ages


A venetian armed galley

Their UU respectively comes from their extensive use of albanian cavalry, the stradiots, since the venetians were never horsemen, but either fought on foot or on ships. The other UU instead represent the galeass, a huge heavy galley, unassailabletg thanks to its high, and capable to rain fire from above, as well as cut in half other ships. There are cases where a single venetian galeass was able to keep at bay an entire ottoman fleet alone, and at the battle of Lepanto they smashed the enemy armada.


Albanian stradiots

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Venetian galeass

The venetians rose to power thanks to their trade abilities, but sooner started conquering and colonize various ports of the Mediterranean. From the Istria and Dalmatia, to theit Greek territories, among them Crete was their crown jewel, but Cyprus, Cefalonia, Eubea the Peloponnese were all their possessions. They also have numerous trade hub in the black sea, among them in Crimea there was the city called “la Tana” which we can see in the third scenario of Tamerlane.


Venice trade network and controlled territories

After the war with Genoa, Venice also started to look to its inland neighbors, and conquered a good part of north of the peninsula. This put the most serene republic against huge continental powers, such as the HRE, the France kingdom, the Pope and almost all other Italians states at the war of the league of Cambrai, that almost saw the extinction of the venetians. But Venice endured, and endured the wars against the ottomans too, even when the Mediterranean wasn’t anymore the rich hub that once was, and the city start became overshadowed by the colonial powers.

Still, Venice endured, it kept the ottomans at bay with numerous wars and became a cultural and diplomatic hub in the centuries to come. The Republic was still rich and strong when its fall came in the 1700, when Napoleon ignored its neutral stance and threatened to level the city.


A venetian parade during the “sposalizio col mar” when the doge would annually throw a golden ring in the water, to marry the city to sea"

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Theres no need to use the monastery here, unlike the Pole bonus it doesnt have any reason to be like this and when locked beyond a UT it just becomes annoying

I still think 90 hp halbs are too much

This should be 75 imo, otherwise quite small in land I think

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Considering the fact loom winds up being free after it finishes researching means a 5 militia drush without a big wood investment might be too much so 75w in dark age might be a bit excessive. If it’s 50/75 starting Feudal that might work out better.

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It’s to compensate for their lack of good hussars, and the tech is quite expensive, so it’s not that OP in my opinion.

I didn’t want a tech like the new viets paper money or burgundians vineyards, which simply generete you gold passively when gathering a single resource.

I wanted something stronger but that actually required some active use of the bonus. This way you get a stronger gold generation for all resources, even mining or trading for gold, but you need a bit of micro for it.

My concern is not about the barracks, but for the dock.

100 wood dock already mean docking a lot earlier, and spamming more easily docks in water or hybrid maps.

75 wood docks would mean basically that each dock have a free fishing ship. With a vikings ally it would even be 64 wood docks… and that seems a bit OP… but if the general consensus is that 75 wood isn’t OP I’ll happily change that

The extra gold in my opinion is better for archers after a classic 3 militia drush in my opinion, but yes it’s possible to add 2 more militias. The drush is also good because even the MaA upgrade winds up being gold free, you even gain 10 more gold, but with faster archers and a potential FC you have better options than a 5 militia drush.

Here is poll for the dock and barracks discount problem:

  • Docks and Barracks cost -75w is OP
  • Docks and Barracks cost -75w is balanced

0 voters

In prospective, japanese saves way more wood in the early game with cheaper gathering points, about 150 wood for dark age only both on land and water maps, and on the latter you have to consider that the wood saved is invested into their super fishing ships.

Venetians would saves 75 wood only on land maps, and 150 wood on hybrid maps. On water maps it becomes a lot of wood though, considering that you’ll keep adding docks, and on maps where there is fish you’ll be able to build your first dock way earlier, maybe even before a lumber camp.

Having to build unnecessary buildings to get something is not micro.

2 Likes

They don’t become unnecessary if they give you gold back.

Yes but you have to do three things to get it.research the tech build a dropoff building and build a monastery close by.Too much transactions to get gold.

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This ship might have to switch between mods like the ratha,cant have melee and ranged both.also dont think the convert thing can be done technically alongside other abilities.

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In the super late game, a farmer would basically generate between 1 and 2 gold for each trip, that on top of the gold also generated by wood or other resources.

The way it would work is that each monastery have a 3 tiles radius, if any building that can accept resources is even in contact with such border, then every unit dropping resources will give your that +5%. So you can have a TC, for example, with it’s first layer of farms, and then on the second layer of farms (so to not penalize too much efficiency) one farm is replaced by a monastery. Now every farmer that drops food at that TC (and any other resource) will generate that surplus of gold. 3 tiles are also most likely enough for about at least 2 lumbercamps on a wood line, so if you renew your lumbercamp you don’t necessarily have to renew the monastery too.

Think about a dock with fish traps all around it on a map like cross, or in TGs markets with 1 single monastery.

I get that it’s annoying to build 1 monastery for each gathering point (considering that they have a 3 tiles area, so you don’t have to renew them that often).

The gold generated, along with the gold from the free techs allows you to do more than what standard civs does with just relics, or techs like burgundians vineyards or paper money.

But such eco power for the late game come at the price of a more annoying micro. So it’s a tradeoff, the UT is not though for the castle age, but more for the late game. And even in castle age just building 1 monastery near your first TC gives you a constant gold flow.

The attack would work similarly to a coustilier, so it would charge with a melee damage, and then switch automatically to a ranged damage. If it’s a big problem, it’s enough that the ship when charging get a buff on attack and speed, and a debuff on range (to 0), then a super high pierce attack is enough for overcame anyway the enemy ship pierce armor, and obtain a similar effect.

The conversion ability was actually a scratched ability for ships already in the AoK beta, so there should be a way to do it, but even if not then it’s not a big deal…

By the way, I buffed the dock and barracks discount to -75 wood instead of -50 wood.

Now this might seem too powerful, but after a bit of thinking, I concluded that it shouldn’t be.

  • in land maps it’s basically +75 wood for the early game, that can be used for archers or for a building more, or to wall.

  • in hybrid maps the bonus translate into +150 wood more for the dark age, and then potentially another +150 wood in the feudal age, depending on how many docks you need.

  • on water maps is between +75 wood and +150 wood in the dark age, depending when and if you build a barrack. Then it becomes more in the ages to come.

When you compare this to other civ bonus, it’s not that OP…

  • japs saves easily 150-200 wood only in dark age.
  • malians saves at least about 100 wood just in dark age, then the bonus became way better.
  • Italians saves about 66 wood in the dark age, and then more depending on how much fish you add, but you should at least double that.
  • dravidians get +200 wood like that when hitting feudal age.
  • vikings saves 87 wood just for 1 dock and 5 galleys, you probably can safely double that since you’ll add at least a couple of docks more and more than 5 galleys by the time you click for castle age.

Updated Venetians Design:

CivIcon-Venetians

Civilization Bonus:

  • Get +50 gold each time a technology is researched (including age ups).
  • Archery range units are 5/10% faster in feudal/castle age.
  • Have emporiums as drop off points.

Team Bonus:

  • Market techs are 80% cheaper.

Unique Buildings:

  • Emporium: building that act as drop off for all resources and gives you +5 pop. Inside it, you can research the eco techs of the mill, lumber camp, mining camp, town center and dock.
    Cost: 100 wood, 35 sec

Unique Technologies:

  • III Schole: relics also generate stone (20 stone/min).
    Cost: 400 wood 400 gold, 30 seconds

  • IV Schiavona: infantry units have +30 HP. (Champions get 100 HP, halberdiers 90 HP, and condottieri 110 HP).
    Cost: 1000 food and 400 gold, 40 sec

Unique Units:

  • Stradiots: Light and fast cavalry with a slow RoF but that can stun enemy units. It costs only gold (a stunned enemy can’t neither attack or move).

  • Galeass: Heavy gunpowder ship with high HP but short range, that can ram enemy ships. If the enemy ship survive, there is a chance that the ship is converted to you side.

CHANGES:

  • The discount on docks and barracks is removed in favor of the new unique building, that in the dark age it gives an effect similar to 75 wood (because of the wood saved on houses) and 1 vill lead. In the feudal age it’s a 25-50 wood discount, and a potential 4 vill lead, with another 4 on castle age. I’ll do another post to dwell more inside the mechanics of the emporium.

  • The team bonus has been changed into 80% discounted market techs, and no more early guilds. This change was again aimed for balancing the new UB, and because not every civ have access to guilds. This change helps with late game trade and with slinging, but it also helps on 1v1 with super cheap guilds.

  • The castle age UT was overhauled. Again, this is to compensate the eco buff that the venetians get with the emporium. The UT is now more generic and less unique, but it’s still very useful for gaining a bit more stone for repairing castles in the late game, and it’s in theme with their history.

A second post to better explain the emporium UB will follow:

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Add the tech tree to complete the design.

1 Like

Will do, but it’s basically the same, the only difference is the emporium, which I’ll explain in a dedicated post.

One issue is that because you have 1 dropsite to replace the other 3, how do you count towards the 2 building prerequisite to reach feudal? This can be a disadvantage if you MUST build a dock or Barracks because normally in super boomy safe maps you build dropsites and don’t think of military early on.

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