I get what you’re saying, but for readability sake, and to make the barrack discount even better (remember we have a civ with -100w for both Archery AND stable) 33% helps as it takes it to about 60w.
Heck you could go a bit stronger too. You could even go something like a staggering 30/40/50/60% cheaper if you want to be bold.
Mmm that is true, but it’s also true that a discount on docks means docking way more earlier and getting fish out faster, although probably having just another 50 more wood on an hybrid map isn’t probably that broken.
Still, I prefer the subtraction onestly, for diversity and flavor to the civ. I don’t want to have some someone saying “that’s just the vikings bonus”. In any case, it’s a niche case the one when the 2 bonuses stack, and even so there is just a 7 wood difference.
It’s not that hard when you think about it, your docks cost 100 wood, so it’s even easier to calculate the percentage.
But thanks for your contribution anyway, your argument about the cumans bonus convinced me that it’s not broken to apply the bonus to the barracks too.
Mmm I don’t want to overdo it… the civ already have a lot of free resources.
Baracks:
Archery Range:
Stables:
Siege Workshop:
Blacksmith:
Dock:
Castle:
Monastery:
University:
Defenses:
Economic Upgrades:
Great. I like how the civ gets a lot of gold but have terrible Monks.
There was actually an error in the monastery tech tree. I intended to give them good monks to counter enemy cavalry and siege, since they have terrible cavalry themselves, but to remove the techs that gives them resistance to conversion.
The only problem is that I confuse the icons and removed theocracy instead of faith.
Fun fact, the venetian republic, while was a cristian country, it also had a lot of freedom from the church, often ignoring threats and excommunication from the pope (until they need him). This allowed for more freedom of thought, and even Galileo Galilei (which was forced later on to abjure his theories) could teach in Padua for years without much trouble. This justify the absence of heresy from the venetians tech tree.
I also created a reddit discussion about the venetians civ, there you can more easily find the updated version of civ.
I’m still learning how to properly use reddit, so things like pictures are still missing, but if you want to join the discussion there and give it an upvote, it would be much appreciated.
Then monks are avg. Monks wihout theocracy are trash IMO
Yeah, in the late game is an useful tech…
Anyway, I didn’t want to give them too bad monks, but I also wanted to give them a powerful anti cav and manganels solution, since as I said cav is trash.
I mean, it’s not as bad as initially thought (without the cavalier upgrade and the last armor) but still they lack bloodlines and the paladin and hussar, so…
I also slightly changed the stradiot UU, giving it a bit less HP, but adding the ability to tribute you +1 gold each unit killed by a stradiot. Now, I know people will now say that this is a copy-paste, that it’s already the unique feature of the keshik, but hear me out:
Also in general it goes with the theme of the civ, which gives you a lot of free gold, but in this case, you don’t train stradiots for the gold generation, you train them for having a decent cavalry unit that can stun enemies, this is just a background ability to add flavor to the civ.
The other small change that I’ll do is to the Galeass, I intended to give it a faster rate of fire to justify its numerous cannons, but then I thought that giving them an attack like the hussite wagon (1 main projectile that does the full damage, then 2 secondary projectiles with less damage and are shot consecutively, 1 at the time) is probably more fitted and balanced.
If there is a split of Italians, making Condos a regional unit seems fun.
Condos could be a regional unit, but even if they won’t, then it’s not a big deal.
The venetians start using mercenaries armies when they started their conflicts in North Italy, and they used local condottieri at start, so it still makes sense for the Italians to have their TB and UU.
Anyway, venetians condo, either as a regional unit or as an Italian shared unit, would have 110HP.
If future civis are going down the path of DoI condods or boyars are the best candidates to become regional units.
Any ideas on what would fit as the civi jingle?
Mmm… I actually never thought of that…
Really, how could I miss it?
Onestly I don’t know what would be more fitted, I’ll do some research and come back with something.
Maybe this? Not sure if its medieval or not.
Mmm I don’t think that it’s medioeval by the sound of it, but it might do it.
I’ll researching in the meantime.
I’m still searching for a adeguate jingle, but since most of the sources are books, those of course don’t help much…
I’m also always thinking about the balance for the civ, especially for the stable.
In the latest design, I practically copied the britons cav tech tree, so no bloodlines paladins and hussar, but usable cavalier and LC.
I was thinking thought that this put them at a disadvantage in castle age, with knights without BL. Now, I was undecided between:
Considering their FC potential with extra gold, which option would you prefer?
0 voters
I personally prefer the first option, what is now in the design, but I still have a doubt, that’s why I’m asking for your opinion.
I think this heavily depends on their light cav.
Did venetians field a lot of light cav?
Historically, yes.
The stradioti, venetians balkan and albanian merchenaries were precursors of the modern cavarly tactics, and quite successfull too.
But with 90HP halbs for the late game, maybe giving them BL isn’t the right thing to do. Also, the stradiots are already their UU, and even if it cost gold it act as a good substitute.
If the venetians would ever be introduced in the game, here are the varius missions on already existing campains where the venetians should replace other civs (in order of relese):
Barbarossa - The Lombard League (4)
Despite the name and being already indipendent, Venice (Purple) was a member of the league, and in fact is represented (even if geographically and historically incorrectly) in the mission, so they should use the venetin civ.
Attila the Hun - Fall of Rome (6):
Aquileia (Red) should be played by a venetians AI. While tecnically they still didn’t exist any venetians at the time, the city will be soon founded by the refugees of Aquileia and Altinum that fled the cities during the invasions of Alaric, Attila, and later on the lombards, so it fits for them to be there.
Battle of the Conquerors - Lepanto:
While the commander of the expedition was spanish, more than half of the fleet actually was venetian. The war started with a contention over the island of Cyprus between the ottomans and venetians, and were the venetians to bring the galeasses to the battle, so it fits that the main player (Red) use the venetians civ. It would also be a good way to let a new player try the civ, without buy it first.
Alaric - The Belly of the Beast (3):
Here again we have the city of Aquileia (Blue) which will contribute to founding the city of Venice. Here, even more than in the Attila campaing, the city is even surrounded by water, the sea and a lagoon, almost to represent what it’ll become of its inhabitants.
Sforza - Mercenaries and Masters (1):
Venetians (Cyan) and Brescia (Green)
Sforza - His Own Man (2):
Malatesta forces (gaia)
Sforza - Blood and Betrayal (4):
Venetians (Cyan)
Sforza - Viva Sforza! (5):
Venetians (Cyan)
There isn’t much to add here, the venetians being a major power in Italy at the time is of course almost omnipresent, and so a player called “venetians”, a venetian condottiero or a venetians controlled city shoud use the venetian civ. This would also add a bit of variety to the campaing missions, which desperately needs.
Francisco de Almeida - Estado da India (4)
Francisco de Almeida - A Son’s Blood (5)
While here there isn’t really a venetian player, the venetians are often mentioned in those missions, so they could be added as a new player (there is the room for them) or they could be represented by some units.
Tamerlane - Harbinger of Destruction (3):
Italians merchants (Blue) could be venetians, since the city in question, the Tana, was founded by venetians mechants and explorers, among them some relatives of the famous Marco Polo. Now the city actually changed hands between the venetians and the genoese more than once, and while we don’t really know who controlled the city when it fell, this was after Genoa lost the war of Chioggia, so it’s safe to assume that the venetians controlled the city, at least nominally, when Tamerlane arrived.
The Hautevilles - Bohemond and the Emperor (3)
The venetians actually participated in this war, even if they are represented by any player in the campain. Anyway, the Melissenos player (Byzantines - Green) should at least use the new venetians UU the stradiots, since they come from that region, and the byzantines emplyed them a little before the venetians.
As you can see, the venetians would be quite present in old campains, and at the same time they would have their own campaing too, (I discuss it some posts ago…).
This post is meant to be both a summary and the post used to participate in the civ contest that @casusincorrabil is organizing.
Bonus:
Team Bonus:
Unique Technologies:
III - Schole: villagers generate an extra 5% gold when dropping any resource to a building nearby a monastery.
Cost: 300 wood 300 stone, 30 sec
IV - Schiavona: barracks units (militia and spear lines) get +30 HP.
Cost: 600 food 300 gold, 40 sec
Unique Units:
C - Stradiot: light cavalry that can stun enemy units with a special charged attack. It have a small bonus damage against knights and cost only gold.
Cost: 80 gold, 14 sec, 800 food 400 gold for Elite
D - Galeass: heavy ship that with a short range gunpowder attack. The ship can ram other ships, dealing massive damage, and without 1/3 chances of converting the ship to your side.
Cost: 120 wood 80 gold, 40 sec, 700 food 500 gold for Elite
Baracks:
Docks:
Archery Range:
Stable:
Blacksmith:
Monastery:
Siege Workshop:
Defenses:
University:
Economy:
Castle:
The Basilica of Saint Marco and the Dogal Palace
NOTES:
I’ll summarize here the 6 missions that I thought of for an eventual venetians campaign.
In my mind, a campaign about venice should be through its entire history, and not just about a singular moment in its history. So here are the 6 missions:
The birth of a legend:
Set in the last years of the Western Roman Empire, you control a small group of survivors and refugees that are trying to escape from the goths and hunnic invasions, seeking shelter in the deep lagoons. The scenario starts with you besieged by none other than Attila in the city of Aquileia, and you’ll see the downfall of cities like Padua and Altinum too, while every village you’ll find is under pressure by goth raiders, and there is no safe place until you reach the islands of the lagoons.
This scenario is based around the mith of the foundation of Venice, which is actually a more gradual process, but still it’s a nice mith and callback to the Attila last mission campaign.
Finding its place in a new world:
Here the venetians struggle to survive in a new age, with a even more distant and weak Easter Roman Empire, and with the even more eager lombards, the venetians needs to find its own space, and save their prosperous trade networks.
Besieged in your main coastal settlements by the new longobards, you might need to fall back on your smaller settlements on the islands of the lagoon, where you can find protection behind your fleet. But right when your enemy is defeated, you’ll find out that the even more threatening giant of the franks kingdom is looming on your islands, and you’ll have to fight for your survival by burning the enemy fleet, and conquering their inland fortifications.
Pirates and merchants:
From a river regional power, you are even more evolving into a sea trading empire, but the cities of the Istria and Dalmatia, once under the ERE, are threatening your interest with piracy and competition. You simply cannot accept that, goods can be sold by everyone, but they have to sold them in the city of Venice.
In this scenario, you’ll have to put under your banner every city in the balkan Adriatic, either peacefully or by force. You won’t have a city, but conquered cities will allow you to trade resources, use their blacksmiths and universities, and train condos and stradiots. You’ll also timely receive reinforcements from Venice with ships, archers and siege.
Once the pirates and cities are conquered, you’ll need to help the byzantine dealing with the normans invasion, by burning down their fleet and docks in Apulia, while also settling down the rebellion of the city of Zara, aided by the Hungarian kingdom.
Old alliances:
In the most shameless point of the history of the republic, you’ll lead the crusader knights into siege of Constantinople itself, the city that should owns your fidelity.
With your allies, you’ll defeat the byzantine army and varangians, and then install your puppet emperor. But when even him can’t satisfy your hungry for gold, and your supplies are running low, you’ll breach the city seawall, and set the city ablaze, pillaging every house, monastery and market.
The most serene city in flames:
The rivalry with Genoa is something that goes by since centuries, they are your main and most dangerous maritime power, and now they occupy your main dock on the entrance of the lagoon, while Italian and Austrian allies besiege your from the mainland, but you won’t give, and a long siege awaits you.
You’ll have to fortify the canals and sandbanks, and fight in a weird battle of ships and soldiers alike. Your city is called the most serene for its wealth, and so you start with a huge amount of resources, but no natural resource besides fish. All resources needs to arrive in the city either by the northern rivers, or by trading with the venetian Istria.
Then you have to raze to the ground the city of Chioggia, occupied by the genoese, in order to beat your hated rival.
The downfall of the Republic:
No one could withstand your rise to power, not the pirates, not the byzantines, nor the other Italians states. Not even the Pope and the kingdom of France could stop you with the league of Cambrai, but now, a rising star to the east is treating you. The ottomans conquered Costantinople, and while they can be good trading partners at time, now they eagerly look at your Mediterranean holdings, in particular to the island of Cyprus. The Republic is not anymore the power that once was, but you won’t go down without a fight.
Here you’ll play in the hopeless defense of the city of Famagusta against the ottoman siege. You’ll start with a sorty outside the walls, for then retreat and protect the city from even more aggressive attacks. With few resources and only the sea as a supply line, you’ll need to resist the most time that you can, until all your walls are destroyed by enemy mines, and you cannot build anymore anything. To win you’ll need to survive at least 30 minutes, but then scenario then it won’t end, you’ll just keep fighting until you have strength for a relief force that will never arrive, but that will avenge you in the battle of Lepanto.
The history of Venice is something that always fascinated me. A small city build by refugees on the water, and without large territories behind it that became a world power in its apex.
The city as already said founded by the WRE refugee of the province of the Venetia, that processes partially started with the invasion the goth and huns, but in reality it was the lombards that really forced them to settle there.
The city became rich thansk to its natural ports, and to their ability to navigate the lagoons if the Adriatic. This allows them to navigate the northern Italy rivers where there was an abundance of wood, and to sell them to merchant ships of the ERE. The byzantine themselves called the venetian region the great emporium of the empire. From this, comes their cheap docks and barracks bonus, which represents their natural docks, their early wood abundance.
They also were skilled sailors and merchants of course, this is what they are famous for. This is represented by their early and cheaper guild tech, which allows you to have better market prices. The venetians in fact became rich thanks not because of their merchants alone, but because the Republic imposed that every goods in the Adriatic have to be bought or sold inside their city. That made them rich thanks to the taxes, but also because they always controlled the flow of good, in particular salt and grain, which meant that they could starve the Adriatic and the peninsula when they wanted.
But venice wasn’t just a merchant Republic, it was thriving with artisans and skills laboratories, which transformed and sold the goods that passed by the city. At a time, that was the main economic entry of the maritime empire. This is represented by the gold bonus after each technology, to represent the wealth accumulated thanks to the its artisans and their technological advancements, worth of note, was in particular their arsenal, capable of producing 1 ship per day, thanks to its laborers, the arsenalotti.
Such artisans often gathered in the most nearby church, and formed brotherhoods that regulate and formed the new entries, as well as paying assurances for its members unable to work or their families. Such congregations were called schole, or schools, and thanks to their taxes and external donations, they were very rich, and could finance the state of Venice in time of crisis with loans.
The arsenal, the first industrial mass production facility of the world
Being a maritime republic, the venetians were of course a city of sailors. This is represented by their wide tech tree for ships and foot soldiers. Venetians sailors in fact were hardy people, able to fight both on land and on ships, and capable of quick and lighting amphibious campaigns. Their weapon of choice for the naval warfare was of course the crossbow, but they were able to fight even on foot, and were often well armored. The state in fact often payed for set of armors that was then put aside in ships for the battle. That way, even the sailors and the rowers were able to have a piece of armor, at least a steel pectoral and an helmet. This is represented by their schiavona UT, which also represents the huge chest sword used by their troops.
Their UU respectively comes from their extensive use of albanian cavalry, the stradiots, since the venetians were never horsemen, but either fought on foot or on ships. The other UU instead represent the galeass, a huge heavy galley, unassailabletg thanks to its high, and capable to rain fire from above, as well as cut in half other ships. There are cases where a single venetian galeass was able to keep at bay an entire ottoman fleet alone, and at the battle of Lepanto they smashed the enemy armada.
Venetian galeass
The venetians rose to power thanks to their trade abilities, but sooner started conquering and colonize various ports of the Mediterranean. From the Istria and Dalmatia, to theit Greek territories, among them Crete was their crown jewel, but Cyprus, Cefalonia, Eubea the Peloponnese were all their possessions. They also have numerous trade hub in the black sea, among them in Crimea there was the city called “la Tana” which we can see in the third scenario of Tamerlane.
After the war with Genoa, Venice also started to look to its inland neighbors, and conquered a good part of north of the peninsula. This put the most serene republic against huge continental powers, such as the HRE, the France kingdom, the Pope and almost all other Italians states at the war of the league of Cambrai, that almost saw the extinction of the venetians. But Venice endured, and endured the wars against the ottomans too, even when the Mediterranean wasn’t anymore the rich hub that once was, and the city start became overshadowed by the colonial powers.
Still, Venice endured, it kept the ottomans at bay with numerous wars and became a cultural and diplomatic hub in the centuries to come. The Republic was still rich and strong when its fall came in the 1700, when Napoleon ignored its neutral stance and threatened to level the city.
Theres no need to use the monastery here, unlike the Pole bonus it doesnt have any reason to be like this and when locked beyond a UT it just becomes annoying
I still think 90 hp halbs are too much
This should be 75 imo, otherwise quite small in land I think
