Considering the fact loom winds up being free after it finishes researching means a 5 militia drush without a big wood investment might be too much so 75w in dark age might be a bit excessive. If it’s 50/75 starting Feudal that might work out better.
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It’s to compensate for their lack of good hussars, and the tech is quite expensive, so it’s not that OP in my opinion.
I didn’t want a tech like the new viets paper money or burgundians vineyards, which simply generete you gold passively when gathering a single resource.
I wanted something stronger but that actually required some active use of the bonus. This way you get a stronger gold generation for all resources, even mining or trading for gold, but you need a bit of micro for it.
My concern is not about the barracks, but for the dock.
100 wood dock already mean docking a lot earlier, and spamming more easily docks in water or hybrid maps.
75 wood docks would mean basically that each dock have a free fishing ship. With a vikings ally it would even be 64 wood docks… and that seems a bit OP… but if the general consensus is that 75 wood isn’t OP I’ll happily change that
The extra gold in my opinion is better for archers after a classic 3 militia drush in my opinion, but yes it’s possible to add 2 more militias. The drush is also good because even the MaA upgrade winds up being gold free, you even gain 10 more gold, but with faster archers and a potential FC you have better options than a 5 militia drush.
Here is poll for the dock and barracks discount problem:
- Docks and Barracks cost -75w is OP
- Docks and Barracks cost -75w is balanced
0 voters
In prospective, japanese saves way more wood in the early game with cheaper gathering points, about 150 wood for dark age only both on land and water maps, and on the latter you have to consider that the wood saved is invested into their super fishing ships.
Venetians would saves 75 wood only on land maps, and 150 wood on hybrid maps. On water maps it becomes a lot of wood though, considering that you’ll keep adding docks, and on maps where there is fish you’ll be able to build your first dock way earlier, maybe even before a lumber camp.
Having to build unnecessary buildings to get something is not micro.
2 Likes
They don’t become unnecessary if they give you gold back.
Yes but you have to do three things to get it.research the tech build a dropoff building and build a monastery close by.Too much transactions to get gold.
2 Likes
This ship might have to switch between mods like the ratha,cant have melee and ranged both.also dont think the convert thing can be done technically alongside other abilities.
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In the super late game, a farmer would basically generate between 1 and 2 gold for each trip, that on top of the gold also generated by wood or other resources.
The way it would work is that each monastery have a 3 tiles radius, if any building that can accept resources is even in contact with such border, then every unit dropping resources will give your that +5%. So you can have a TC, for example, with it’s first layer of farms, and then on the second layer of farms (so to not penalize too much efficiency) one farm is replaced by a monastery. Now every farmer that drops food at that TC (and any other resource) will generate that surplus of gold. 3 tiles are also most likely enough for about at least 2 lumbercamps on a wood line, so if you renew your lumbercamp you don’t necessarily have to renew the monastery too.
Think about a dock with fish traps all around it on a map like cross, or in TGs markets with 1 single monastery.
I get that it’s annoying to build 1 monastery for each gathering point (considering that they have a 3 tiles area, so you don’t have to renew them that often).
The gold generated, along with the gold from the free techs allows you to do more than what standard civs does with just relics, or techs like burgundians vineyards or paper money.
But such eco power for the late game come at the price of a more annoying micro. So it’s a tradeoff, the UT is not though for the castle age, but more for the late game. And even in castle age just building 1 monastery near your first TC gives you a constant gold flow.
The attack would work similarly to a coustilier, so it would charge with a melee damage, and then switch automatically to a ranged damage. If it’s a big problem, it’s enough that the ship when charging get a buff on attack and speed, and a debuff on range (to 0), then a super high pierce attack is enough for overcame anyway the enemy ship pierce armor, and obtain a similar effect.
The conversion ability was actually a scratched ability for ships already in the AoK beta, so there should be a way to do it, but even if not then it’s not a big deal…
By the way, I buffed the dock and barracks discount to -75 wood instead of -50 wood.
Now this might seem too powerful, but after a bit of thinking, I concluded that it shouldn’t be.
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in land maps it’s basically +75 wood for the early game, that can be used for archers or for a building more, or to wall.
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in hybrid maps the bonus translate into +150 wood more for the dark age, and then potentially another +150 wood in the feudal age, depending on how many docks you need.
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on water maps is between +75 wood and +150 wood in the dark age, depending when and if you build a barrack. Then it becomes more in the ages to come.
When you compare this to other civ bonus, it’s not that OP…
- japs saves easily 150-200 wood only in dark age.
- malians saves at least about 100 wood just in dark age, then the bonus became way better.
- Italians saves about 66 wood in the dark age, and then more depending on how much fish you add, but you should at least double that.
- dravidians get +200 wood like that when hitting feudal age.
- vikings saves 87 wood just for 1 dock and 5 galleys, you probably can safely double that since you’ll add at least a couple of docks more and more than 5 galleys by the time you click for castle age.
Updated Venetians Design:
Civilization Bonus:
- Get +50 gold each time a technology is researched (including age ups).
- Archery range units are 5/10% faster in feudal/castle age.
- Have emporiums as drop off points.
Team Bonus:
- Market techs are 80% cheaper.
Unique Buildings:
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Emporium: building that act as drop off for all resources and gives you +5 pop. Inside it, you can research the eco techs of the mill, lumber camp, mining camp, town center and dock.
Cost: 100 wood, 35 sec
Unique Technologies:
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III Schole: relics also generate stone (20 stone/min).
Cost: 400 wood 400 gold, 30 seconds -
IV Schiavona: infantry units have +30 HP. (Champions get 100 HP, halberdiers 90 HP, and condottieri 110 HP).
Cost: 1000 food and 400 gold, 40 sec
Unique Units:
-
Stradiots: Light and fast cavalry with a slow RoF but that can stun enemy units. It costs only gold (a stunned enemy can’t neither attack or move).
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Galeass: Heavy gunpowder ship with high HP but short range, that can ram enemy ships. If the enemy ship survive, there is a chance that the ship is converted to you side.
CHANGES:
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The discount on docks and barracks is removed in favor of the new unique building, that in the dark age it gives an effect similar to 75 wood (because of the wood saved on houses) and 1 vill lead. In the feudal age it’s a 25-50 wood discount, and a potential 4 vill lead, with another 4 on castle age. I’ll do another post to dwell more inside the mechanics of the emporium.
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The team bonus has been changed into 80% discounted market techs, and no more early guilds. This change was again aimed for balancing the new UB, and because not every civ have access to guilds. This change helps with late game trade and with slinging, but it also helps on 1v1 with super cheap guilds.
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The castle age UT was overhauled. Again, this is to compensate the eco buff that the venetians get with the emporium. The UT is now more generic and less unique, but it’s still very useful for gaining a bit more stone for repairing castles in the late game, and it’s in theme with their history.
A second post to better explain the emporium UB will follow:
4 Likes
Add the tech tree to complete the design.
1 Like
Will do, but it’s basically the same, the only difference is the emporium, which I’ll explain in a dedicated post.
One issue is that because you have 1 dropsite to replace the other 3, how do you count towards the 2 building prerequisite to reach feudal? This can be a disadvantage if you MUST build a dock or Barracks because normally in super boomy safe maps you build dropsites and don’t think of military early on.
3 Likes
I think its fine. Consider that you can save resources with this building by putting it close to several resources at once and gather from all of them; you essentially save 100-200 wood for every double/triple res placement you get. That 100-200 wood could easily fit into an early barracks or a dock, even on safe boom-y maps. You’d just have to account for it in the build order.
That was an icon made by Seicing, who took the Venetian flag and made it into a civ symbol. If you can do it better, by all means go for it. Don’t be an ass.
2 Likes
potentially yes. The first age 1 dropsites you are likely going for are mill and Limber Camp so in practice you’ll have saved 100w if the food or wood is bordering mines but you might be unlucky and the food and wood are separated and therefore you are making 2 dropsites anyway.
2 Likes
True, but I believe that the solution could
simply be to add a “hidden bonus” that they require just 1 kind of building, or 2 emporiums, something like that, since anyway it’s hard to age up to feudal without at least an emporium on wood and one on berries, and most likely another one on a second woodlines.
Also, the civ is designed for a fast drush, without having to mine gold and with +75 wood for an early barrack.
That is a possibility, but on standard maps like arabia, resources like berries and woodlines aren’t that close most of the time, so it’s hard to really maximize the use of the building in the dark age, although it could be the case for more “secondary” resources, like deers, gold and stone, or to add a farm wherever you may need.
In the dark age, the eco power came mainly by 2 things:
- the wood saved on about 2/3 houses, so about 50/75 wood.
- a vill lead of 1 for not having to idle your TC for researching loom, but I’ll dwell more into that later on and specific post.
From the age 2 onwards the emporiums can really be used for multiple resources, since you focus on more than trees, berries and sheeps, but again the strength here will come more form the techs that the emporium can research.
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So, a bit more info on the emporium unique building:
Emporium:
A bit of history:
So the building that inspired the emporium building is actually the fondaco a building to store, buy and sell resources, and where the foreigners could reside. Inside a fondaco you could find any kind of goods among merchants, pilgrims and mercenaries. You can see similar buildings even today in Venice, like the fondaco of germans and the fondaco of turks, but such buildings were spread through the whole city and the venetian maritime empire. I changed the name to emporium since it make it easier and more intuitive to recognize what the building does, and also as a small nod to how the easter roman emperors called Venice, the emporium of the empire.
Fondaco dei Tedeschi and fondaco dei turchi
The in-game building:
At first I thought of a building that acted as a drop off point for all and a market, but that would mess up the keys on the UI, so I discarded it, but a building that serves as a drop off for all resources and a house, but I still felt like it needed something, so I designed is as a building for all eco techs. I also briefly consider an eco drop of building that also acted as a barrack, but I quickly discarded it when I thought of how fast the drush would be.
How the emporium should appear, taking inspiration also from the aoe3 unique building, the lombard
The balance:
The building act as combined mill, lumber camp and mining camp, meaning that you can drop of food, wood, gold and stone inside. You can also auto-reseed farms, and of course research the eco techs of all those 3 buildings, this alone can save you some wood, depending on map generation.
The true additional values, are two:
- it gives 5 pop, so each emporium can save you 25 wood (unlike a folwark, it doesn’t cost more).
- it can also research eco techs of the TC and the dock. Those are: loom, wheelbarrow, hand cart, town watch and patrol, and gilnets.
The strength of the building is that you don’t need to idle your TC or dock to research them eco techs. In the dark age, it’s like the goths bonus because you can either train 1 more vill and age up the same, or click 1 vill sooner, since you research loom at the “mill” (and also get the 50 gold back after researching it). In feudal age, you can get a potential 4 vill lead, since you don’t need to research neither wheelbarrow or town watch at the TC, but you can research them at the “lumber camp” (paying the full price though), and the same happens in the age 3, with hand cart, town patrol and gilnets (at the dock).
The building itself:
So the emporium is basically a cheap TC that can’t train vills or age up, but it can accept all resources, research its techs, and gives +5 pop. A potential addition (but only if deemed necessary) could be to give it a small garrison space, but I thought that with the early eco strength it shouldn’t be necessary.
It cost 100 wood and 35 seconds, like any other mill or lumber camp, and it occupy a 2x2 tiles area. The building synergies well with the venetians not just because it saves TC and dock time, but because each of those techs gives back +50 gold, meaning that you don’t struggle to get a cheap tech like town watch to get that +50 gold, or to do a goldless drush in age 1.
1 Like
Updated Venetians Design:
Civilization Bonus:
- Get +50 gold each time a technology is researched (including age ups).
- Archery range units are 5/10% faster in feudal/castle age.
- Have emporiums as drop off points.
Team Bonus:
- Market techs are 80% cheaper.
Unique Buildings:
-
Emporium: building that act as drop off for all resources and gives you +5 pop. Inside it, you can research the eco techs of the mill, lumber camp, mining camp, town center and dock.
Cost: 100 wood, 35 sec
Unique Technologies:
-
III Schole: relics also generate stone (20 stone/min).
Cost: 250 wood 200 gold, 30 seconds -
IV Schiavona: infantry units have +30 HP. (Champions get 100 HP, halberdiers 90 HP, and condottieri 110 HP).
Cost: 1000 food and 400 gold, 40 sec
Unique Units:
-
Stradiots: Light and fast cavalry with a slow RoF but that can stun enemy units with melee attacks. It costs only gold (a stunned enemy can’t neither attack or move for 3 secs).
-
Galeass: Heavy gunpowder ship with high HP but short range, that can ram enemy ships. If the enemy ship survive, there is a chance that the ship is converted to you side.
Tech Tree:
Archery Range:
Barracks:
Stable:
Blacksmith:
Dock:
Siege Workshop:
University:
Monastery:
Defenses:
Castle:
Economy:
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This means they got all their economy, defenses and dock, isn’t right?
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Where can you edit and make your own tech tree like this?
1 Like