Maybe, the other bonus was designed for land maps too, especially to keep training archers when hitting castle age without idling a range, or for a fast siege ram push.
+50 wood was more for water hybrid maps, to go docking as soon as the game started, and having enough wood for a dock and fishing ships, but the same pop of the other civs.
Bonuses:
TB:
UTs:
So this is a built based only around a strong early feudal archers. Basically you substitute the extra gold with extra wood, which is a bit more flexible in the early game.
The extra starting wood represents the foundation of Venice. Basically to build in those marshlands they planted a ton of logs in the terrain, some of those logs cemented and are still present nowadays.*
The gold bonus and uni bonus is finally substitute by a trading bonus, as many people asked before.
The trade generating food is based on the prosperous spice trade upon Venice built its trade empire.
I was reluctant to give them a bonus that could be used only in TGs, but if the civ is solid in 1v1 with the other bonuses, I donāt see the harm.
At the start, I thought of other variant of this bonus, Iāll link them down here:
What do you guys think? Do you like the new trade bonus? Do you think that one of the variants were better than the one I pick?
Also, I checked some pools that I made some months ago, and it came up that people prefer a infantry UU instead of a cav UU.
So Iāll try to design, and then post, the concept of a new infantry UU, that may substitute or not the cav UU. Then we can compare the 2 UU, and see the one that better fit the venetians.
Iāll of course also post the changes to the tech tree that an infantry UU may bring.
0 voters
Do people trade much in game?
In team games they always trade. Itās a pure TGs mechanic, but as I already said, if the civ is balanced in 1v1 with the other bonuses and UT, I donāt see the problem.
Also, as they are now, they have 4 bonuses now, so there is room for potentially a fifth (minor) bonus, even if itās not that necessary.
The idea is that on arabia, you have +150 wood at the start (a bit like lithuanians) and archers that are faster. This should make you archer rush pretty strong, from there on you have to snowball it. The UTs also should help. Then they can go for almost everything but cavalry (even if this may change if they receive a infantry UU).
On water or hybrid maps is even better. You have extra wood and can dock right away, without worrying for building a house. And just get to fish earlier. Then you faster working dock allows you to get to fire faster, or massing galleys sooner.
As for looking at the poll, voters are spread across all choices, giving me not a direct answer, lolā¦
But itās fine, for now letās set the bonus as:
And then letās keep food as the default one, and see what better suits the bonus and the civ. So this way at least we have a general idea of what the bonus should be.
Another thing that I wanted to ask you guys was this: the castle age UT makes docks and siege workshops work 40% faster, should it include blacksmith as well? (for a cost adjustment of course).
0 voters
When the venetians instituted the arsenal, all craftsmen and artisans related to ship building, weapon makers, wood and iron workers and blacksmiths were transferred there, especially the ones specialized on warfare. So theoretically, the bonus should affect docks, siege workshops and blacksmiths.
Fun fact: the old blacksmith district was called ghetto, a venetian word that meat foundry/iron working. After all blacksmiths were transferred into the arsenal district, the place was assigned to the local Hebrew community, and they officially āinvitedā all Hebrew to take residence there (even though, without the cruelty and racism that distinguished the more recent centuries). From there on, the custom of relagate all the Hebrew in one part of the city (and after other minorities) spread across the Italians cities before, and european cities after. A shameful primacy of the venetians.
I like the bonii much more now, my main concern right now is the cavalry. I think their tech tree is way punishing in that respect, missing 2 armor upgrades, husbandry and bloodlines (if i recall correctly). I would personally go with something like the briton cavalry line, weak but not completely useless.
Well, yeah of course, when Iāll post the design for the infantry UU Iāll also add the consequent changes to the cav UU.
However, if the cav UU should be chosen instead, the present tech tree is balanced.
Also @Exradicator, if itās not too much trouble, vote on the 2 polls that are in the previous posts. The more feedback I have the better design the civ it will be.
Iām also thinking of a potential fifth bonus for them, something really really minor, since I think that they are mainly fine as they are now.
Some ideas for now are:
Problem is that they would have the worst cavalry in the game and basically no trash unit for raiding. The only civ which comes close to that is malay, but forced levy 2h and cheap elephants compensate (to some extent) for the horrible cavalry.
No but I agree. The point is that I didnāt decided to using an infantry UU over the cav UU, so itās a decision related to the UU that Iāll choose, after posting the design for the infantry one.
With the current UU, the tech tree is balanced.
I was thinking something like, giving them all the cav armor, removing the hussar, and giving them either BL or husbandry.
Of course, still no cavalier, CA or regional unit (camel, BE, SL).
Wait, you are telling me that we wonāt see the famous venetian battle elephants? 
Anyway, maybe you can post two designs for the different UU and we can see from there were to go. If you go infantry though, keep in mind that their UU needs to have a decent speed (better than champ).
Yeah I know 
but I always prefer to be meticulously precise in order to avoid as many incomprehensions as I can.
The design for the cav UU is already in the topic in some early post, but after posting the one for the infantry UU Iāll copy the other one as well.
Yeah I was thinking of giving them the speed of the berserker.
I donāt think BS working faster is a very strong bonus, so a voted no.
As for the trade bonus, I voted wood, but to be honest I donāt even think they really need it.
I think you can even go as far as infantry armor upgrades are free (no BS required). If we go infantry route, I think they need a really good (but maybe expensive) heavy infantry unit for the late game (berserk level, but maybe with a bit more pierce armor).
I was worried that it could be too strong. That itās mainly a water UT, but I given a second effect Co it wonāt be completely useless in land maps (and since it fits historically).
So I could probably add it with a small cost increaseā¦
Mmm okā¦ then Iāll leave foodā¦
Another idea could be:
It would fit its theme that their trade ships were capable of self defense, and it could be added to the other trade bonus.
Of course, food isnāt generated at the same speed of gold, but like at half the time, so it maybe be like:
Mmm, Iāll see. I didnāt mind also early squires to compensate for the biggest weakness of the m@A.
As for the free armor, I prefer to give them just the first one (of course no BS required), you can always add the other 2 later on. But I agree, even all 3 armor wouldnāt be that OP.
For the UU youāll seeā¦ I already have a draft, but Iām waiting until I have some time and I can test it in the editor through triggers.
Nice post OP. A lot of work and thought has been put into your idea. Like really, excellent work.
Buuuuutā¦ I donāt think including a city state as a whole civ would make for a very interesting civ.
A city state? I think you need to study more historyā¦
Nice self reflection there mate. It was effectively a city state. A powerful one, but it never had its citizens populate large swathes of areas. It did manage to control/exert influence on large areas, but I donāt think that fits too nicely into AoE2
It was a city state for the early period, but it expanded a lot both in north Italy, the balkans and overseas.
Istria, dalmatia, crete, cyprus, the peloponese, eubea, and even crimea were all territories under venetians rule, and colonized by them.
Also, the venetians brought to its knees the byzantine empire way before the ottomans, and not when it was just a city.
At the battle of Lepanto, another example, more then half of the ships were from Venice itself, and another bunch was from its overseas territories.
Most of the crusades wouldnāt be possible if the venetians (along with genoese and pisan) didnāt lend their ships, and supplied their armies by sea, especially considering that Gibilterra wasnāt always under Christian rule.
Thanks, but why OP? Iām try to make the civ balanced, I think that I achieved it for the most?
What part of the civ do you think that itās OP?
Sorry, by OP I meant Original Poster, not overpowered. 
As for how good the Civ is, I would just have to have a mod that adds this civ and give it a spin. Mostly looks reasonable, +150 gold might be a bit too good. Getting loom, and going FC without needing to mine goldā¦ just seems a bit too strong together with the wood bonus. But again, not 100% sure, Iād have to play with it to say. But as a rough comparison, even Ethiopians need to skip loom (possible on maps like Arena) or mine gold to do both FC and loom.
Personally, if we get another civ on the Italian peninsula, Iād prefer the Lombards. Not too many campaigns are set in the earlier medieval era, so having one more would be quite fun.
Ah ok 
You know, I put a lot of effort on this so at the OP words I have been triggered, but not in a bad way, I search for every possible feedback to make the civ as better as possible.
The +150 gold was removed in the latter draft of the civ. Only the +150 wood remains.
Anyway, the idea is to give them extra resources the start, and no eco bonus for the long game, similarly to lithuanians.
Theoretically, with the +150 gold, they would had just that. So no need to mine gold was possible, but not to much āsnowballyā. Also, being primarily an archer civ, it was more of an help for a Drush, into M@A, into archers.
But anyway, the extra gold was replaced with a trade bonus.
The fact is, that the Lombards, or the longobards are mostly represented by the Italians civ.
The longobards descended into the peninsula after the byzantines reconquer it, and occupy most of north and central Italy, with the exception of the far south (Puglia, Calabria), Rome itself, and the venetia lagoon and coastline.
Other the the blue territories, Venice had a strong influence on other smaller north Italians states, like Mantova and Trento.
For some years, that area (not yet Venice) was the center of the byzantine command on the peninsula, but at some they abandoned and transferred it to Bari. Then the venetians still held on their indipendece, and elected their own Dux (the Roman title) later called Doge.
The Lombard instead controlled city like Milan, Genoa and Florence, then after the collapse of the kingdom, they separated into smaller city states, but still more similar between them, than with Venice, that had it language with still high influences from latin and greek that still nowadays is recognizable.
The GC of course represents the Genova city, but the condos actually represent the landlocked cities type of soldiers, like Milan and Florence.
