1 barracks worth of MAA is going to be meaningless when you have 10 jans and xbows, a bunch of archers and like 20 sipahi+ at this point of the game
3 hours 17 minutes is the start of the French Ottomans game.
There’s lots of other things going on in the games, but jans have been made in most ottoman games (not just the janissary company) during the 15K prize pool 1v1 tourney. It’s uncommon to see them massed above 15-20, but they are very frequently mixed in during castle age and sometimes imp by the best players in the world.
This game has nothing to do with jans he already has lots of spears if he had mostly jans i could accept that too but the spears saved the day,just the trash archers kills the jans and beasty palyed good here he couldnt have done much
It’s not like you make Jans as a unit as the core of your army. By the time you are mixing in Jans you generally have a bunch of archers and either spears or Sipahi from feudal. Also generally the current strategy is to produce and/or change military academies to xbows and MAA or xbow sipahi. You also get a free mangonel or 2 around this time as well from the MIA (and of course the mehter). Frankly Ottomans usually have a really diverse army due to military academies.
If you back up the above video to 45 minutes for the Otto mirror, you can see on top of the dozen or so jans,both sides have like 20-30 archers, a dozen MAA, and a dozen xbows (they had sipahi at one point but they immediately stopped producing once jans came out). The French game, Lucifron produced like 10 jans, 10 xbows, 20 MAA and had a bunch of archers and spears as well.
Instead of making jans make crossbows its better at 45 minute they made jans but never continued to train them istead bee turned to crossbows they just tried to make it work but its not working if the enemy has horses just add cheap spears instead of jans its far more cost effective you can put 1or2 janissary for fantasy but thats it
Food is often more restricted than gold in castle age. That and 10 jans kill knights faster than 20 crossbows, so they are way more effective. It’s why a mix of 10-20 jans are so common. It’s enough to make the opponent unable to build cavalry, but not a huge investment for when they go into something else. Crossbows don’t melt knights anywhere nearly as quickly (and perform worse against spears too).
Jannisaries actually kill MAA about as fast as xbows since they do about 2/3 of the damage but shoot about twice as fast and the bonus damage they take from archers is offset partially by the extra hp, and they take less damage from mangos (though they do cost more and the gold cost makes it so you cant mass that many)
Dont be ridicules 10 jans cant kill knights faster than 20 crossbow.Mixing jans in to your army is not a common thing mix some spears its far more better.Crossbow dont melt knights as faster but its just a so little difference but it melts man at arms also they perform far more well against spears if you take the resorce they cost to account .
here this part shows you dont know anything about this game janissary fires fast but that means they are hitting the man at arms armor twice on the other hand crossbow make one strong shot and hits the armor one time also they are cheaper.Im not even talking about crossbow’s range
castle MAA take 12-10 damage from jannisaries depending on upgrades per attack. They take 19-15 from crossbows depending on upgrades. The extra ~50-70% damage xbows do per attack is balanced out by the fact that they shoot significantly slower. Xbows are still better vs MAA due to the range and being slightly cheaper, but not significantly so (and perform worse against every other unit).
It’s why you don’t continue building jans vs MAA unless you are swimming in gold or doing a farm transition, but it’s not like they are horrendous against them. They still perform better vs MAA than most units.
Also against knights janissaries do 26 damage every 1.25 seconds compared to 16 damage every 1.9ish seconds. That dps is very nearly triple (although you will probably lose a bit to overkill damage). Assuming no overkill 7 jans is about equal damage as 20 xbows vs knights.
Do you ever played ottoman once?Janissary are worse against spearman than crossbow and vs man at arms crossbow by far makes a difference .
10 janissary cant kill a man at arms how are they going to be good against them.
like which unit
Every 4 crossbow equals 3 janissary 4 crossbow deals 4x17=68, 3 x 26=78 dps crossbow:34 jans:52 if we think crossbow also better againt man at arms and other units i say crossbow.Also spearman does the job janissary can do so why waste resources im talking about castle age of course
4 crossbow shots = 3 janissary shots, however janissaries also shoot about 50% faster
4 crossbows deal about 64 damage every 2 seconds or so which is around 32 dps. 3 janissaries deal 78 damage ever 1.3 seconds which is about 60 dps or almost double. (I used +1 pierce armor as calculation and +0 pierce attack, the small amount blacksmith techs affect xbow vs knight and jan vs knight damage is pretty negligible though)
Jans aren’t good against MAA, but they are acceptable. They do better than most units. It’s kind of like Zhuge Nu vs MAA. You don’t shred them or anything, but you deal enough damage that they have to respect you. Heck 10 crossbows barely oneshot a spearman, but no one is gonna consider spearman a hard counter or anything.
For other units they perform better against, I was referencing mostly spears/unique infantry units (horseman are obvious). They arguably do better against ranged units. They have like 40% less effective hp but also deal more damage (assuming they don’t get kited by micro), but you don’t really want xbows or jans to fight archers unless you have overwhelemed them (in which case jans are marginally better since their lower effective hp doesn’t matter if they are shooting archers while the archers are hitting MAA/Sipahi).
They do techincally take less damage from mangos and javelins and high base attack to pierce their defenses, but they perform poorly against them either way so not something you want to fight.
I was approximating Mehter buff. Xbows are 2.125 attack speed without mehter, so I approximated 1.9 as buffed attack speed. Janis go from 1.5 to 1.3ish Frankly attack speed buff calculations are so obtuse that I don’t have the exact number.
Without mehter, 3 Jans would do 52 dps (78/1.5) and 4 xbows would do 30.1 (64/2.125) dps (32 dps if you had +2 attack at blacksmith) all assuming knights with +1 pierce armor. Still a drastic difference
Just gonna hop in here since Beasty made a new tier list. He thinks Ottoman is a really good civ, and not even memeing said he considered putting it S tier, but doesn’t think it’s quite Rus/Mongol level. Ottoman 3rd best civ according to him.
While that is just 1 person’s opinion, it does seem to be a general consensus from pro players that Ottomans are really good now. (He does also mention that differences between tiers are not that huge and this is closest to perfect balance the game has been at)
(specific tiers unordered)
Yes Ottomans generally a good civ but we are not talking about that please dont make any more comments here you are writing made up things to justify yourself
I don’t mind if people dislike the direction of the civ, but people claiming jans are useless or silly stuff like crossbows are as good (or even nearly as good) as jans against knights is just silly and ignoring basic math.
Tbh I agree when Beasty said that castle jans are way too strong against cav especially in castle age and should have base damage buffed and anti-cav damage nerfed. Gives the civ a better answer to MAA without making cav matchups (mainly french) just basically an auto-win for the civ.
You are giving numbers from your imagination everything you say is false.If im saying castle age janissaries are bad they are bad im not making imaginary assumptions like you.
Beasty wrong they are not too strong against knights beasty sometimes say things without thinking last game you share proof of that if they were so strong why did he trained spearmen.Solution to this is very simple take the janissary gun tech split it in to two different techs one for castle age which gives +2 damage one for imperial which gives +1 damage that easy
He trained spearmen in Feudal age because he’s playing vs the French and it’s the best feudal unit against knights.
My previous post laid out the exact numbers of dps. If we disregard the Mehter and assume xbows have +2 pierce damage (generous), Janissaries do more than twice as much damage per second to knights for a unit that costs 14% extra resources. If you want to claim those numbers are my imagination, I’m sorry if basic arithmetic is too much for you to understand.
Janissaries even beat knights heads up with no frontline, something that is extremely not the case with xbows who get actually destroyed.
Janissaries are a big part of the reason that Ottomans have a 60+% winrate vs French at higher levels (along with the free spears in feudal)
Janissaries do more thatn %50 damage not twice which if we think they got countered by nearly everthing they dont worth.
They barely survive if you make spears instead of janissary its far more better
No its not no one uses jans early military school and production of spearmen is the reason,everything you say is false you are playing with numbers making up things not really there
If by no one, you mean only the professional players playing in a tournament for thousands of dollars then sure. Almost every ottoman game against a cav civ was building janissaries from the archery range withing 2 minutes of hitting castle in the Call to Arms tourney. I guess you know better than the pros though.
For some basic math
full upgrades in castle
1 Janissary does 32-6 damage = 26 damage per shot. 26/1.5 = 17.33 damage per second
1 crossbow does 23-6 damage = 17 damage per shot. 17/2.125 = 8 damage per second
17.33/8 = Janissaries deal 2.125x more damage per second compared to crossbows, assuming you have +2 damage on crossbows.
