The Organ Gun rework has made them essentially useless, which is tragic for a unique unit.
The concept of aoe damage against tight grouped infantry is not relevant in AoE2 like it is in Starcraft 2.
Nerf their cost, build time or tankiness. They are already so slow and really only useful in Arena Castle age.
Cutting their damage in half and giving them no accuracy just makes them useless against everything. Even infantry with decent Pierce Armor don’t die to these units anymore. They can’t even kill buildings anymore.
I beg you devs, please do not let this awesome unit be relegated to useless status.
Don’t you think it’s at least fun as a concept?
Poorly executed perhaps, I won’t judge too confidently/definitively. But there’s ways around that. Like increasing the damage and increasing the cost.
(And getting rid of that ugly bonus damage in favour of more pierce damage)
TBH I’ve always thought the Portuguese UU should be more powerful and expensive.
Protigiesw became the best civ in the game.nkw they are basically a civ without UU. I agree with op that it’s useless. I would rather have heavy scorpions as a uu tech than organ guns.
I agree that organ guns were too strong against mangonel in Castle age. But hey, janissary are even better with more range…
If think it was an overreact tion nerf.
But I do like the idea of making organ guns good against groups of units… Just thaz this change did not achieve this at all.
Which is a shame. Cmon elite organ guns need to be atleast as good as generic FU heavy scorpions or what’s the point.
Give organ guns more spread, make them miss more bullets, but give them more dmg.
Each point of pierce armor decreases the dmg of organ guns by 7(!)
Either organ guns are rofle stomp op against low pierce tsrget (almaot non exist in imp) or they are trash.
Pls someone compare arbs vs elite organ guns for me.
I agree that this nerf was not good. Thematically organ guns not doing anything but tickling skirms and huskarls and the like is bad
But they have to nerf the obnoxious arena play.
I think revert them back to the way they were, but make them convertable by monks without redemption and give them 1 less range
The idea was to make them powerful against infantry spam and make them weak to onager and heavy cavalry. The projectile spread out seems to have some bugs. Hope they fix it.
Keep the changes they have right now, with the following exceptions:
That should fix them.
organ gun was a disaster
uncounterable units have no place in castle age, especially when they need 0 upgrades
what you starcraft players might not realize is that this game is not just 1v1. when someone is in castle age, you might be in feudal age
all civs should be able to deal with all the units instead of just hoping one of your teammates has the niche counter unit available and is in a position to help
They never should have been able to kill buildings.
They should be good against masses of units. That’s what the rework tried to do although I think it missed the mark with pierce armor being so strong against them.
I would either greatly up their damage and cost so that armor doesn’t really matter, or I would make their projectiles ignore armor completely and adjust the damage value from there
Also, I think their spread needs fixed, it’s much tighter now.
Just give them plus 10 vs infantry. There, problem solved. That means they will shred infantry at least. While maintaining their weakness to many other things.
Organ guns absolutely shred feudal age unis. Because of how sensitive they are to pierce armor now. Like uncouterable shredding
The current state of the unit is terrible.
Tight packed infantry are nowhere to be seen, unless it’s arrow resistant like champskarl/huskarl/serjeant/eagle.
The only other unit who might be tightly packed are archers, in that case a mangonel is better. The Organ Gun has been ruined.
Give organ guns bonus damage to infantry, archers, and cavalry, and increase the spread so that only 1-2 bullets will ever hit the main target.
They should be decent against single units, shred groups, and be abysmal against buildings and siege.
I did som tearing in the scenario editor just now.
Elite organ guns kill a single non moving generic paladin in the same time as a heavy scorpion.
Heavy scorpion has way better aoe. Organ guns are as expected a joke of an uu.
2 arbs kill a paladin a little bit faster than one organ gun, but not by much. 2 arbs are roughly same cost as one organ, shot faster, have ballistics, are faster, generally preferably.
Aren’t uu supposed to be strong? Stronger than atleast generic FU comparable units.
This rework sucks
Should have nerfed the wood bonus instead some and organ guns less
I made a design where organs are more of an anti-archer uni. I think this makes more sense as portuguese have a lot of options against infantry anyways.
Imo this would make more sense, giving the unit a specific role in the roster of Portuguese. Not a standalone unit, but fitting way better in with the civ. Also the anti-building damage would still keep some of the “siege” classification they got.
||Elite Organ Gun
||80 W, 70 G
||80 W, 70 G
||2 vs Standard Building
||3 vs Standard Building
||1 vs Ram
||2 vs Ram
||3 vs Archers
||4 vs Archers
||Same as Current
||Same as Current
||1200 F, 500 G
Yeah I think the whole wood from berries idea is reallly werid. And unnecessary. I still have the opinion that the best eco type bonus for the div would be to move the Feitoria from Imp to Castle but limit it to 1. I even made a Theorycraft for that single Feitoria some time ago. It would support a nice castle age agression play quite well, but then fall of later on against standard booms meaning you would need to deal good eco damage with your agression. It would be a unique playstyle only available for that civ especially interesting for players who like to make nice castle age agression without being completely all-in.
And it would keep the early game weakness of the portuguese when they don’t use their archer discount to deal some eco damage to the opponent in return. Not all civs need an early game eco bonus and I think with that archer discount Portuguese can actually survive quite well there IF their midgame offers something special to pull ahead there. I think this stuff makes the games interesting. Other civs are designed around having strong early games, but I think it’s silly to just give all civs early eco bonusses until they are “competitive”. This takes away a lot of the civs identity. And Portuguese always had been a kinda “slow” civ.
Feitorias limit 1 in castle, maybe another one in imp had Been proposed hundreds of times already. Apparently devs don’t want to…
Regarding organ guns, I woukd prefer a solution with less bonus dmg involved.
I think the intent was on point, but something seems wrong when testing. I’m beginning to suspect there is a bug preventing organ guns from dealing their full damage.
I was testing Arbalesters vs Organ guns. For equal cost it is roughly 2:1.
In small scale, this is a fairly even trade at long range (about 7 tiles). With 1 organ gun vs 2 arbs the fight can go either way. Interestingly it does not matter if the 2 arbs are standing adjacent or far apart, since the organ gun does not seem to have any noticeable splash/cleave.
If you reduce the range (~2 tiles) then the organ gun easily beats 2 arbalesters.
The strange thing is when you scale this up at the same ratio, such as 40 arbs vs 20 organs. At this point you would expect the bullet spray to hit more units (less wasted damage from missing) and make organs pull ahead. The result is exactly the opposite and the arbs win easily. This is true at short range or long range.
At 60 vs 30 the fight gets even worse for the organ guns. Fight size has the inverse effect from what is expected when using single target units against area control units.
I don’t believe it’s a matter of overkill. In theory the new Organ guns should have less wasted damage than the old when the enemies drop. In practice it seems like many of the projectiles simply disappear.
this was the case even before the rework. its mostly the slow fire rate.
i once faced 60 organ guns vs 60 rattan archers (both sides barely any micro)
the rattans totally stompped my organ guns depsite being more expesinve and against stacked archers
It’s great to see all of your conversations regarding the changes and I want to confirm that the team is continuing to take your feedback into consideration (together with other factors).
At this point reverting to pre-patch Organ Guns is not our target but we’re looking into adjustments which may make Organ Guns play out more towards our originally intended design¹.
This all takes time to get right and we don’t have a timeline to share on this, but we will keep monitoring your feedback as usual (even if we don’t usually post about it here, contrary to our regular confirmations in the bug report section).
¹ (Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition - Update 81058 - Age of Empires)
Developer Note: The aim of this change is to more accurately realize the vision of this unit being effective against groups of units.
Instead of one high damage projectile and additional mostly cosmetics bullets, the damage of the unit is spread equally across all its projectiles.
On a purely intuitive level, the changes make perfect sense. I like it when all I have to do is look at an unit to know what to expect.
Before, it fired one powerful main projectile and I guess threw some darts borrowed from the nearest pub that caused negligible damage. Now, it fires as many projectiles of the same power, as it has visible guns. As expected from an organ gun.
We can discuss buffing it of course, if anything I’d make its volleys devastating but very slow to reload, as expected from the real design. But the changes went in the right direction.
In that case I think you should consider reverting this change
- (Elite) Organ Gun attack dispersion decreased from 0.75 0.25
BTW I really like the new idea of Organ Gun over the original.