Bagains is kind of lacklustre but it’s more to do with the high cost and that you probably have Konniks already which deal half-decently with pikes, +5 armor is plenty. Bulgarians weakness is against ranged and if they are to get a combat bonus it should be something in that area.
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Against ranged, as they don’t have paladins, that could use siege Rams. The suggested discount in siege upgrades could help in that.
Bagains could maybe give more hp too, or PA. But that would make the closer to champions.
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I think everyone is focusing on military buffs, and I get that, they’re more fun/flashy. But if they need anything it’s probably an eco bonus.
The question is what bonus?
- Stone? Only if it kicks in in the Castle age, otherwise they just become a tower civ. So maybe 25 stone TCs is the answer as some have suggested.
- Wood? Siege civ with wood bonus? That’s the celts.
- Food? We are stepping into Slav territory.
- Gold? Maybe there’s something here, but I’m not sure I see any historical reason to connect the bulgars with better gold mining.
So here’s my suggestion:
TCs cost 275 wood, and 25 stone.
Siege workshops cost 100 wood. (Slight wood boost, and in line with their historical and game identity)
Since there feudal age is already good, we are adding a quick spike to early castle. This gives them a quicker answer to archers if they can throw down a fast siege workshop. And the stone savings can either translate to a quicker boom, or a faster defensive (or offensive) krepost.
So they have a feudal power spike (free M@A), early castle spike (cheaper siege workshop and TCs), late castle spike (Stirrups), and a clean transition into imperial comp of siege/konnik or cavalier. And in imp they should have the better eco if they used early castle pressure/defense well to allow a boom.
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I really don’t see the problem with Bulgarians, they have great stables, barracks, ans SW, ranges and monasteries are decent too.
Their trash is one of the best, FU halbs, FU hussars + stirrups, almost FU skirms (lack 1 armor).
Their krepost are great, and their UU is among the strongest.
Yes their dark and feudal age are standard, from castle age they have a lot of super powerful units at their disposal.
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If you want an echo bonus…
What about a similar bonus of the Khmer and their farmers, but with other resource?
Example. Hunters and shepards don’t need to drop the food in buildings.
Maybe that is not a huge boost. What about wood choppers? Or miners? Those could be huge boosts. You still need a lumberjack for the upgrades, but you avoid building more of those as the wood line advances. If you save wood from lumberjacks, you can build the barracks earlier. If the bonus is for the miners, you can steal gold or stone without a mining camp.
Other possible small boost: food from animals doesn’t decay. Not big thing, but you can have multiple villagers in multiple sheep’s without bumping each other and without throwing decaying food. This combined with the instant dropping could be nice.
Yet somehow they have a low winrate, while other infantry civs have a higher win rate.
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Yeah like winrates are really reppresentative of how much a civ is strong…
Well giving them a straight wood bonus feels kind of weird as wood bonuses are usually given to civs that go for archers…
A cool idea to get them rolling would be if they get a free unit for each production building they build.
For example: you build a barracks, you get a free militia (inside the building). You build a TC, there is a free villagers inside of it. You build a Siege workshop, you get a free scorpion. (Mangonel would be too strong). You build a Kreppost, you get a free Konnik and so on…
This gives them a good momentum to push and boom behind that with their cheaper TCs.
No No Nooooo dont repeat the same mistakes again and again ! First we need to put portal gun farmers into the books of history and not even think we can use it as primary case for breaking the game further. Portal Gun Farmers are game breaking and they did not fix Khmer at all.
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The tech tree is fine for Siege focused Civ, although let’s keep in mind that Archer into X-bow is the strongest strategy in the game, even Celts and Slavs often make use of their X-bows despite the inability to upgrade them as the game progressess, X-bows are just that good.
More importantly than that however is the lack of any significant eco-bonus. Look at the Magyars, they have the best CAs, FU Paladins, Fu Arbs, Halbs and Champs with supplies and a great UU. Still their just an average civ because they lack a decent eco-bonus. They could easily be S-tier if they got a good eco-bonus.
Then compare the Bulgarians to Slavs and Celts. Full Siege is good sure but full Siege + 15% discount or full siege + 40% HP and faster firing rate, that’s alot better. Slavs also get great trash with Druzhina, and Celts get faster moving Halbs. On top of this Celts get their extra wood and Slavs their food.
Konniks are useful sure and the Hussars are great even, but imo they don’t make up for having three major weaknesses, no X-bow, no eco, no siege bonuses.
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[quote=“MostDragon80736, post:69, topic:91200, full:true”] Portal Gun Farmers are game breaking and they did not fix Khmer at all.
[/quote]
Hahaha 100% agree, can you imagine portal gun wood choppers? So OP, atleast with Khmer farmers you still have to invest 60 wood into the farm.
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I see magyars every day more often…
Siege don’t need bonus, look at Mongols, their siege is generic until drills, having that much choices is alone a strong advantage.
So having almost FU complete trash with the best hussars in the game.
But not all civs need to be S tier, if they are A and B tier is more than enough.
Also not every civ need to have and eco bonus, otherwise all civ would just look the same.
Bulgarians struggle in the early ages, but are rewarded in the late game with military.
Also, not needing to grab more stone to build 4 TC is an eco bonus.
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But, if you spam barracks as crazy, that means spamming free militia? Or is just for the first barrack, the first stable, etc?
Instead, i would make this: “villagers can drop any resource in any economic building”.
This would give them some wood and (here is the important part) building time.
But i prefer the 25 stone TC
I think this adds up too much in long games. For example at 25 stone. I can drop EIGHT tcs for the price of 2…that’s nuts and would mean i should drop tcs to use as towers or to block walls. It would get completely out of hand.
I prefer the idea of 50 or 100 stone per age from castle age.
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They have good trash overall, although their skirms are really trash, you need that last upgrade. But good trash does not make a civ good.
I never said they needed to be S-tier, I said Magyar could be S-tier if they had a good eco-bonus. It was an example of the importance of eco-bonuses. And yes, I do think every civ needs an eco-bonus, in fact you will not find a single civ without one today and Bulgarians are a low-tier civ mainly since theirs is so bad.
I’d say ring archer armor is the second least important upgrade for skirms after thumb ring
They have higher than average trash.
They only lack the last armor upgrade, their skirms are better than the most of other civs.
Yes, having one of the strongest UU and cavalry with highest dps does, on top of a mini spammable castle.
Italians don’t have a eco bonus, and they are a lot worse than Bulgarians, koreans and turks have one and they are still low tier, below both Bulgarians and magyars.
So an eco bonus doesn’t make a civ good.
EDIT: turks aren’t that low tier, but it’s not their eco bonus that makes the difference.
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Getting to those options is. And taking out crossbow in a tech tree with no other early viable ranged unit option further hinders that. Spanish at least get Conqs. DauT before he got sick mentioned this alot. Bulgarian early options are so bad that you never reach the late game. And as a guy who has played since AOC days winning tourneys and still consistently at the top for 20 years. I have to agree with him here. Daut probably knows the most about this game than any of us combined when it comes to decision making of each civ and his superior game knowledge. Just lacking in speed.
Its only strong if you can get there safely. Reminder that archers can be amassed in feudal which is why crossbow is so strong. A common follow up after man at arms. Skirms is not something you generally want to do as archer player will reach castle sooner and early xbow > early elite skirm. You could do man at arms into scouts but you have to hide that else you will also lose to a few spears.
Even with a lower CA frame delay. You have to wait till castle age to make them. When you have to face early mass xbow. Without a thumb ring bodkin bloodline ballistic armour and husbabdry investment. You aren’t gonna take favourable fights vs mass xbow. Tatars and Huns can do this easily but other civs cannot.
Only once you’re there. You need to be untouched and have a safe boom which isn’t always easy.
I managed to beat Bulgarians from a friend who’s +150 elo higher than me in 1v1 with both Elite Mangudai and Elite Kamayuk (I had a garbage arabia map in one and didn’t fully wall and he did fully wall both games) lost 3 vills early feudal while he loses 1 and any option he had he couldn’t do coz he simply couldn’t get there.
Heck I just won with vikings on ladder going siege ram arb + pikes just because I could.
This civ definitely needs something to be able to keep up. Because right now the current availability leads it to predictable strategies that aren’t always 100% effective.
??? We used to have Japanese CA with no bloodlines, there is still stuff like bracer-less Persian CA, no thumb ring Khmer CA… Not to say it’s a reason not to buff Bulgarian ones, but this justification sounds weird.
Well the most important Italian bonus is the cheaper fishing ship. If they only had the cheaper techs , not many water players woud bother looking at them 11
Beside spamming them in DM I don’t see this changing much at all.
It is an actual bonus, ie.if you’re in an all tech game krepost (and feitorias too) are disabled, unlike UUs
Burmese and Celts entered the chat
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