Not to mention Burmese CA: no bonus and lacks 2 Armour upgrades.
That can be useful to any civ. Farms produce food but need wood. If you wood bonus, you need less villagers on trees, so you can put them on farms.
And it would be really useful for me, as I tend to put a mining camp next to the trees…
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Having the upgrade makes them take twice as many hits from Arbs, how is that not a huge difference?
The discussion is somewhat unneccesary though. Bulgarians have good trash but that’s not enough.
Well obviously a civ can have other issues than their eco-bonus but it’s still immensely important. You actually make my point for me by mentioning the italians, ranked as S-tier on water and low-tier on land, the difference being that they can make use of a very good eco-bonus on water. All the top tier civs have good eco-bonuses, this is just not up for arguement, it’s simply a statement of fact.
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Well it’s quite a common strategy to go for Arbalests with Celts but I get your point…
Still, a wood bonus seems boring for a Civ that does not want to go for foot archers and likes building stone buildings…
he didn’t say it wasn’t important. he said the second least important.
compare - bracer gives range and extra damage
chemistry gives extra damage.
they already have solid pierce armor against archers as is.
the problem is they have a lot of bonuses as is, and people are resistant to giving up the existing bonuses for others.
i’m sorry, what do you think your half off dock techs, cheaper fishing ships, cheaper gunpowder, and cheaper age up is?
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Krepost and cheaper TC, nice. But still, you need a castle for techs.
Free militia upgrade, nice, but only useful in early feudal and imperial. Bagains are somehow lackluster. And militia line is not meta.
Konniks and stirrups cavaliers and scouts are very nice. But not as tanky as paladins against archers. Not best skirmishers.
They have good siege, but is very expensive to upgrade too. I never have resources for that. Well, I am a noob, but with Malians or. Malay I can upgrade whatever I want, including siege, and with Bulgarian, even with free militia, I have problems for the 1000 food of the siege ram or SO.
Useful in Feudal and Imperial means it is a great bonus.
Bagains makes Bulgarians 2HS win against Champions, and even do better against Hussars and Paladins.
You have obviously not see a Konnik + Hussar + "HS push in early Imp. It just wipes the floor with most early Imp troop compositions, and requires only 2 Techs, even though they are expensive.
Yeah ok sorry, technically they have the eco bonus for water maps, but since land is a lot more common, it’s safe to state that in general they don’t have any.
And the cheap age up isn’t properly and eco bonus…
However, there are other civs that I can take as example, like bizz, malay (don’t have anything on land), berbers and so on…
Huns are and always has been a top tier civ, and they don’t have any eco bonus.
To quote @phoenix1089 “Huns have an amazing one from the get go. If free housing from the start isn’t one of the most impactful early game bon bons(since half the people here cant seem to spell bonus) wtf is?” And I gotta agree with him. This is an amazing eco bonus.
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It very much is. It virtually is an extra Scout in Feudal, and an extra Knight in Castle.
It also allows Italians to Age Up quicker, and start puming out Archers before the opponent has even M@A.
They do, they spend no Wood or Villager gather time on Houses, which adds up quicly.
No Vill gather time spent on building Houses is actually the best part of that bonus.
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So, to recap after all this discussion:
The problems:
Bulgarians struggle in games under 30min but are doing ok lategame.
They have limited options / only one thing they are really good at (Kreppost/Konniks).
While there are other civs with limited options that perform great, those other civs usually have great (eco) bonuses to make up for it. Bulgarians do not.
The proposed solutions:
- Siege technologies cost 50% (big buff)
- Siege workshops are build faster (situational)
- TCs cost only 25 Stone (helps with Krepposts)
- resource collection buildings can be used interchangeably / resources can be dropped of at Kreppost
- buffing their infantry or trash units
- some straight up food or wood eco bonus
- unit production buildings come with one free unit when build
- did I forget something???
I think we can all agree that their limited Archer line is their standout thing and it gives flair to playing this civ. Their bonuses should buff either Siege, Infantry or Eco. They should not get access to crossbows…
Huns have an amazing bonus yes, but it’s not an eco bonus, saving about 900w for the entity of the game.
Just for comparison, teutons, japs, Britons and Celts save/gain a lot more wood that huns and have mo starting penalty.
The bonus it’s more about the convenience of never being houses, so that both your military and eco see never stopped, and that you can start gathering resources right after the game starts.
It’s a nice discount, and a nice bonus, don’t get me wrong, but an eco bonus is something consistent along all game or a least a consistent part of it, not a 3 time saving.
Maybe there has been a misunderstanding about what I call an eco bonus and what not… sorry my bad.
A 3 times savings on the most expensive upgrades in the game, and the ability to get them sooner, specially mportant when these upgrades also open up a wide variety of units and tech options too.
Specially stacked up with Condottieri in the Imperial Age, a unit that is comparable to the Champion (-3 attack, -0.1 rate of fire, +10 HP, +0.3 movement speed, +1 Melee Armour and same Pierce Armour after Pavise), without having to upgrade it a lot.
Also, for the Huns, you are not calculating the added Villager gather time, from not having to build Houses. It adds up a lot.
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Anything that nets you more resources, either by way of extra gather rate or by discounts needs to be viewed as an eco-bonus, if we are to make fair comparisons. Huns have their houses as mentioned, they also have their 10/20% CA discount which is powerful.
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And spending no Villager time building Houses too.
Not to mention that around 900 Wood is a lot, and can kill you in the Feudal and Castle Ages.
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Paladin upgrade it’s more expensive, along with other UU upgrades, still, I’m not complaining about the bonus itself, I don’t think it’s bad.
I don’t deny it, but it’s not an eco bonus in its definition.
The point is that a civ dont need a faster gathering rate, more carry capacity, a discount on a eco unit/building to be a good civ.
Bulgarians just save a bit of stone on TC (technically an eco bonus) but that doesn’t make them a bad civ.
Yes, they could get some tweaks and small changes here and there, but they don’t need an eco bonus.
Then Bulgarians already have one, since they save stone on TC.
They can wall in dark and go for a FC and then put down 4 TC without the need of diverting some vills on stone.
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