Proposal balance change for August patch

[MatCauthon3]

@CheshireWig3203

Yes, BacT made them once in BOa2 ane failed.

they were also made in NAC or HC3

@CheshireWig3203

Siege Onegers, Siege Ram, Bombard Cannon, Torsion Engines, Arbalest >>>> Shotels

but we were talking raiding. and light cav line vs shotel warrior raiding.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

so you know better then the pros. got it

Again, I repeat the third time, Gold being used up by Shotels is only when a few units are needed quick for a small window in Early Imp.
This is exactly what we have seen happening even in the pro scene after the Honeymoon Period with Ethiopians for the first few months after African Kingdoms release.

So like a few Shotels once every 5 games with Ethiopians. All the gold is rightfully reserved for Arbs and Siege.
Got it this time?

[MatCauthon3]

so they are made and seen.
you said earlier that you were fine with units being seen and that they didn’t need to be seen in every game, you just wanted them to be able to be used in tournaments.

mission accomplished, according to your own logic shotels don’t need to be buffed.

@Parthnan

So like a few Shotels once every 5 games with Ethiopians. All the gold is rightfully reserved for Arbs and Siege.

and according to your own logic. thats fine. that means that they aren’t “UNSEEN/UNUSED” Despite your claims otherwise.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

so they are made and seen.

No they are not seen enough, and whenever theyre made, they always fail to perform. Which the pros have also acknowledged. And we only see less and less of them every year…

And 20% Faster firing FU Arbs are better at raiding than Shotels.
These Arbs are the best in the game, and have 10 attack with a reload time of only 1.35 SECONDS.
So each Arb dishes out nearly as much dps as a Shotel, that too from 8 range afar.
Far better for raiding.
While also not costing food.
And while being able to Focus fire.
And while hiding from Castle/Tower/TC fire.
And while reaching every corner of your enemy’s base.

And while also being better at every other task (Holding, Defense, Siege Tasks, Sniping, Scouting, Direct Battles etc)

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

No they are not seen enough

in the past you claimed that you would be fine with units being made in 10% of games.
here you claim they are made in 20% of games. moving the goalposts much?

@Parthnan

And 20% Faster firing FU Arbs are better at raiding than Shotels.

less mobility, slower train time, slower kill time. and according to your own logic, Shotels have more health and more pierce armor and more ability to evade arrow fire.
they also cost more gold, which according to you is very important.

and i guess this means we got further proof of you not being quite honest. after all.

Are there any downsides to lowering the costs of the unused(in ranked) War Elephants, Shotel Warriors, Condottiero, Teutonic Knights, Turtle Ships, Steppe Lancers and Siege Towers?

Simple question here on units like War Elephants, Shotel Warriors, Condottiero, Teutonic Knights, Turtle Ships, Steppe Lancers and Siege Towers which are almost never used in ranked 1v1 play. Considering that this game is supposed to be balanced around ranked play, and it is built to be played mainly that way, and that we also have these 7 units which are basically never seen, there is a responsibility to make these units viable for serious use in ranked play. TOPIC OF THE THREAD: So the ques…

in this thread title you call them unused in ranked.
now you admit they get used in 20% of games.
man parthnan, why should i take you seriously?

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

Shotels have more health and more pierce armor and more ability to evade arrow fire.

I’m sorry but between a unit that does a similar dps from 8 range vs a unit that does the dps at 0 range, the one with 8 range is safe from almost all enemy fire and attacks regardless of the HP/PA differences.

That too while being able to Focus fire.
on top of hiding from Castle/Tower/TC fire.
on top of reaching every corner of your enemy’s base.
And while also being better at every other task (Holding, Defense, Siege Tasks, Sniping, Scouting, Direct Battles etc)

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

I’m sorry but between a unit that does a similar dps from 8 range vs a unit that does it at 0 range, the one with 8 range is safe from almost all enemy fire and attacks regardless of the HP/PA differences.

they don’t do similar dps though.
the shotel has 22 attack fully upgrade.
the arbalester has 10.
even if you give them a 20% boost for their firing rate that is 12 vs 22.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

the shotel has 22 attack fully upgrade.
the arbalester has 10.
even if you give them a 20% boost for their firing rate that is 12 vs 22.

Wrong calc, you fail to figure in thumb ring

And then there’s also the fact that Shotels need 650 Stone castles, while dying after only a few hits each

Whereas an Crossbow/arbalester lives on and on
The number of hits an Crossbow/arbalester deals vs the number a Shotel deals, is such a MASSIVE difference.

[SilvAries3406]

So far you are only talking about post Imp units with all techs. Which is fine and all, but what about Castle Shotels?

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Wrong calc, you fail to figure in thumb ring

except the thumb ring detracts from the faster firing. trust me, it was pointed out to me that you can’t make ethiopians better by increasing their firing rate, because thumb ring detracts from it.

@Parthnan

And then there’s also the fact that Shotels need 650 Stone castles, while dying after only a few hits each

shotels still have more pierce and health then your arbs do. and they cost less gold.

you seem to be moving your goal posts quite a bit their parthnan. i’m done with this discussion.
you admitted before that you just wanted them to be seen. you lied in threads calling them unused and admit it here that they actually see play. i’m done.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

shotels still have more pierce and health then your arbs do. and they cost less gold

8 range is far more important than any of that. It automatically means the unit lives on and on after every battle. And gets to fire 10x the number of shots/hits.

In total Shotels cost basically the same as Arbs. Then consider that Shotels need 650S Castles.
Whereas Arbs need the ARs that you will build anyway as Ethiopians.

And you;re always going to have Archers from Feudal already. No need for anyone to go out of their way into Shotels (almost wrote ‘Shitels’ lol), wasting their gold on a unit with no long term potential and that is much worse than Arbs in almost every way.
And is even bettered at its own job by a mass of Light Cavs(because they do as good a job while saving precious resources).

[JoJo9942]

Shotels are definitely better than light cav in castle age, 80 food units with mediocre 7 attack is a joke in castle age. Ask your pro buddies if making light cav in castle age is better for “long term gold saving”, they’ll laugh you off

[MatCauthon3]

And Ethiopians would have to invest into stables and armor tech purely for raiding.

Furthermore 80 food just isn’t feasible when you’re trying to boom

[SilvAries3406]

Also thanks to the extra +100 gold per Age, Ethiopians can manage to do a fast castle strategy with only one gold miner instead of the usual 3, which mean they can start to get stone way earlier than any civ going for the same strategy.

[Parthnan]

@JoJo9942

Shotels are definitely better than light cav in castle age, 80 food units with mediocre 7 attack is a joke

you ignore the fact that each LC survives so much longer than each Shotel, that they naturally deal 2x or more NUMBER OF HITS. For just as much NET DAMAGE OUTPUT.

And then consider their 25% higher movement speed. And their great role as not only Raiders and Scouts BUT ALSO Meatshields for the unit Ethiopians go for 100% of the time, Crossbows

[JoJo9942]

@Parthnan

that they naturally deal 2x or more NUMBER OF HITS. For just as much NET DAMAGE OUTPUT.

yeah because thats how raiding works lmao

[Parthnan]

I understand that you mean there is limited amount of time to do damage to villagers, but consider that LC are also 25% faster meaning they deal a higher frequency of hits. And you can simply have MORE LCs even in castle age. Because no need to build castle.

Knights do this job even better in castle age. Hence we see them in Castle age not Shotels.

LC do it better Imp onwards. Hence again we see them instead of shotels.
And all the gold is exclusively for Crossbow line and Siege. Shotels get none of it.

Shotel elite upgrade is also prohibitively costly (1200F 600G) and unlike Elite Berserk/Elite Samurai upgrade, this doesn’t improve the unit significantly.

[JoJo9942]

LC can be stopped by walls and pikes, knights can be stopped by monks.

[CheshireWig3203]

xbows and kts kill shotels.

[JoJo9942]

they both kill LC too