PuP experiences: So much overtuned stuff, so poorly distributed. Please do not let it go live like this

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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I absolutely love the intention to make civs more unique and give them more standout stuff. But what is this pup?

China: If China has problems, why not help them there instead of making their insane lategame even more insane? I don’t get that. The nerf to firelancers is way too insignificant. They still burn down buildings too quickly and now they are even better at killing vils and fighting in general. Why? They need a nerf to speed and costs as well as 30 building dmg at best. Don’t let them be the unit that is just massed until you win with the occasional hand cannoneer line. That is already too strong a comp, which is even stronger on pup.
And why buff nest of bees? They are already better than mangos, are better to handle, to quicker deal dmg, have a bigger aoe… And now they are also getting a dmg buff? Why? Just why? And don’t get me started on grenadiers… China doesn’t even need Ming, but they can go for it, which is not impossible due to their very strong eco… And then they get a freewin unit? Again? Why would you buff this unit to be that overpowered again? The grenadier needs a fundamental rework. Abbas and China get two imperials, and China on top of that gets an extra and overtpowered win condition. What are these changes?

And no nerfs to Palace Guards (they are simply too fast with Yuan) is just mindblowing. China doesn’t get help in their castle transition, but get tons of improvement for the lategame. This is totally off.

Abbasid: The Ghulam has too much hp. Plain and simple. He is faster, has better dps, is not really weaker against heavy, which is what their weakness was supposed to be, and he has just bonkers hp. 310 hp in imp is almost 100 more than other maas. For that little bit more costs. This unit is completely overtuned. 8 of them win vs 10 maa. They win against more of the units they are supposedly worse against. And they ruin lightly armored units… Where is the tradeoff for this power? This unit is very overpwered.

The Camel archer can’t go live as it is on pup neither. Their dmg and speed is too high to have them be THAT mobile. 20 camel archers can beat an army of 80 whatever units, because they can kite forever. If camel archers are supposed to have this kind of mobility and fire animation, they need to be made slower. Otherwise they just kite everything to death.

Ottoman: The Sipahi is overtuned just like the Ghazi Raider. It’s not good to have a mounted trash unit that can compete with knights as a front line. Their hp is too high, their dmg is too good even against non-ranged and combined with archers, Mehters or Janissaries they become too strong. What is this about the Janissary actually? The patch doesn’t say anything about them getting more hp. But they have 130 hp in castle and imp now. That gotta be a bug. There is no reason to buff the Janissary, He does very well in his respective role. It’s a ranged spearman of sorts that is in a good spot. I expect the hp to be brought down to where it was before the pup. The nerf to Mehter is well… Giving them 20 less hp in feudal won’t change much. They are too fast and that’s why they are too hard to kill. Their speed is 1.88. That’s horseman levels. And Ottomans don’t have horsemen anymore. They god 1.75 speed Sipahi. So reducing the Mehter’s speed to 1.75 seems to be the logical and according nerf to me. They could also be made a bit more expensive. They are just so good.

Delhi: The Ghazi Raider is just overtuned. A horseman that can be built against everything is not a good idea. It counters so much, it breaks the counter system in the game. This needs to go again. It would have been better, if the Ghazi Raider was an extra unit without the horseman’s strengths (no anti-ranged bonus dmg), but with a slight bonus to heavy armor. They are supposed to help in feudal. In later stages of the game this unit is not really necessary. What is its role to be? Would you build it over crossbows or handcannons? Unlikely. But it could be a good low budget option to not really counter heavy elite units, but to be able to stand against them with pure masses and a slight bonus. They should not be a hard counter to heavy. There is enough stuff that counters heavy, while trash units already dominate big parts of the game.

Mongols: I really like the direction that was taken with the Keshiks. I think that’s a nice and fitting approach for Mongols. They appear to be in a good spot. Unless they need to face Ghazi Raiders or Sipahis. But that’s not the Keshik’s fault. These other two units are just too strong. The Keshik gives the Mongols the right identity and I like it.

HRE: There is a patch that focuses on making the civs more unique. Giving them more or different units, new techs, mechanics… Simply new stuff. And now imagine that the civs that has the least unique techs and units gets NOTHING from this patch. I was so disappointed when reaching the HRE section of the patch, I thought it had to be a joke. But it wasn’t. The merge of Benediction into Devoutness is… yeah… nice. But who cares? That doesn’t do anyhing. Nothing interesting or notable at least.

HRE could have gotten something for Landsknechte, who do not have a single unique upgrade. There could have been improvements to inspiration for the eco without Aachen (maybe combined with a slight nerf to Aachen), to finally make Meinwerk viable. There could have been improvements to Inspired Warriors, because this tech is way too obnoxious and weak to be used. The slow rate of buffing one unit by one makes this tech almost useless. It needs to be better. Every other buff is rather easily applied in an aoe. But prelates have to buff one by one, are slow, die quickly… It just doesn’t make sense to go for this pretty much civ defining tech. And I would have thought that a patch like this would address that. But no. And then there is still this completely useless Fire Stations tech. Just remove it or revert it… And since hp was given to Abbasid ships now, I think Fire Stations needs a total overhaul. Right now it is a useless tech. Probably the worst tech in the whole game.

On top of all that there was no new unique unit for HRE eihter. Nothing. There could have been Teutonic Order units like Teutonic Knight or Ritterbruder. Or the Black Rider. There could have been new Landsknecht variants that actually fit their historical role (using lances and later arquebuses). Landsknechte in general could get a better cost effectiveness. Yeah, they can be good. But you can also have battles in which they just die doing nothing, because their hp is SO low. They also always die, even if you win. And for that they are really hella expensive. Esp with all the constant nerfing to Regnitz.
Last but not least Burgrave could use a rework as well. I hate everything about this Landmark. It’s a low elo killer that often is too much for the opponent. It has an all-in character like nothing else. It falls shorter and shorter the longer the game goes. Burgrave gives HRE stuff that makes it hard to give them anything else. Rework it, remove it, overhaul it… Just change it from this insane production building into something cool, interesting and fun to use. It’s almost similar to Chinese, simply one age earlier. Burgrave makes other civ players hate HRE, while it overshadows all the shortcomings of the civ. I think overrunning the opponent with quickly to produce maa in early castle just needs to go from the game. It’s a lame identity and leads to more problems than solutions. I am all in for a completely new Burgrave. There is so much that could have been done with HRE, but they got nothing. It really blows my mind.

The rest of the patch seems rather fair to me or I just forgot about something. But that’s it for now. I am sorry that I can’t say too many good things about the patch. I just feel like this patch overtunes so much, distributes that poorly between the civs and prefers some civs over others in a ridiculous manner or improves already strong or even broken aspects, while ignoring the weaker ones. And I don’t like that.

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With Regards to what you said

China

  • Grenadiers… I feel like they might need to be tuned down a little ###### ### as they are now… just -1 or -2 Siege Damage should be sufficient… I definetly feel like the unit can be overpowered but it takes so much time and effort to make these… 10 damage is alot because its seige but if it was brought down to 9 or 8 I feel like the unit will be balanced even with the AOE

  • Palace Guard.. with YUAN they are insanely Fast and Maybe it is just down to YUAN +15% Movement Speed… should be brought down to +12% and the palace Guard could maybe instead of being 1.35 movement speed can be 1.29… so with YUAN its just 1.45 which is fair I guess

  • Nest of Bees… the Buff was if they get the Unique Tech but everything else was the same wasnt it? maybe increasing the Nest of BEEs cost by 25 wood… 25 gold could validate having them better than MANGO’s to begin with so a slight cost Nerf but leave them as they are…

  • Siphahi I actualy like the changes but maybe just bring the attack range from 0.72 to 0.55 or 0.6 max and this unit will be fine because its attack range now is ridiclous,

  • Ghulam. this unit actually doesnt perform that well as you’d think it does and needs either a cost decrease or another thing done… refer to my other posts,

  • Camel Archers.. Definetely Need a Nerf… Could be a slight speed reduction… from 1.62 to 1.58 OR just a TINY TINY Delay when they fire… not like before … and not like the PUP … somewhere in the MIDDLE,

  • Janissary… I honestly feel like 110 HP Castle… 130 HP Imperial is warranted on this unit as it doesnt get much use or atleast isnt what people usually create when playing Ottmans… Usually Knights…Siphai… and was arguably the worst hand canoneer even against cavalry… lost to Knights and MAA in Equal Numbers and Equal Resoces LOL…

I think the DEVs made a mistake and gave him 130 in Castle which is too much… but 110 in Castle isnt too bad … make worst comes to worst… 100 HP Castle and 120 Imperial should be ok atleast to begin with…but it definetly NEEDED A BUFF because it was too expensive for what it could do…

Ghazi Raider the Idea behind this unit is to help Delhi in Fedual vs HRE… English who have Man At Arms… this Unit Loses in Equal Numbers and Equal Resources against MAA, however maybe reducing the Bonus against Archer Units from say +12 to just +8 in Fedual… so its 75% of it’s Damage and Not Double Damage

Horeseman gets 9 + 9 so 18 damage vs Ranged… this can get 12 + 8 … so 20 vs ranged… and it attacks 5% slower and costs 20 more resources so that be fine… then this unit will seem appealing as a soft counter to Heavy whilst Performing like a Horeseman vs Archers

HRE… I 100% Agree THEY NEED A UNIQUE UNIT AND A UNIQUE TECHNOLOGY and SOME MECHANIC THAT MAKES MEINWORK VIABLE…

I feel like what they can do is give HRE a Unique Technolgy in CASTLE Age which allows Prelates to have an AOE INSPIRATION in a a like 4 or 5 Tile AREA…so you can maybe patrol them and have them auto Inspire or Something…

So it gives you the OPTION if you choose to skip Aachen Chapel then just create a Bunch of Prelates in Castle and have them Insipire Villagers to boost economy and once you research inspired Warriors all your army can be inspired with them just standing there

ALSO LANSKENECT Really Needs a Unique Tech… I feel like they need a +5 HP boost in Castle and +10 In Imperial… and maybe a UNQUE Tech that allows them to say Dodge one Projectle every now and then or Perhaps just take less Damage from Archers/Camel Archers because they die too Easily to Archers which are the weakest form of Counters…

Maybe even just a +1 Ranged Armour with +5 HP would be enough in Castle as they would last one more attack minimum if not Two… and +10 in Imperial really adds +12 with elite army tactics

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TLDR

Nerf the hell outta everything but more buffs for HRE. Yep.

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Not nerf the hell out of all the other things, but reconsider the buffs and nerf them accordingly. I am not nerfing anything to make it worse than before, I nerf the buffs that were overtuned.

Thanks anyway for your contribution. I guess.

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true, while everything get buff, especially for ottoman that is already broken, hre still remain the same, lack of unique units and gameplay mechanics

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yes, they should have helped the early game of china and not made it a problem for team games

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Right, give chinese some early game help LOL, maybe strat with Imperial Official but less food and Wood as HRE does, and the cost of second landmark need to be brought down, maybe after that we can talk about nerfing some chinese unique unit,

And now we can’t quite mass zhuge nu as easily as before, and almost all civs gor some more power in feudal, i think it is a bit fair to have stronger late game?

and don’t forget that HRE’s landmarks are all super powerful, while chinese, not much, and still cost the same.
-Imperial Academy definitely not more powerful than Aachen
-Barbican is good, but not better than kremlin that got militias and wood buff ain’t it?
-Imperial Palace… Maybe a FFA only landmark?
-Clocktower is good, but it is bugged as it’s don’t benefit from military academy tech.
-Regnitz definitely far more powerful than 3 pagodas that need double the cost to unlock
-Pick any of HRE’s age 4 landmark and compare it to gatewall? That doesn’t get that 33% damage reduction to ALL Building? Or Spirit way that doesn’t compare to villager printing ability of Swabia?

-About Palace Guard, well they have less Armor so if you want their speed to be nerfed we need that armor back i think? And Knight will chase and mow them anyway. And normal MAA can scare them away. and not anyone can go yuan anyway because it is sooo expensive for the little speed boost

  • Nest of Bees is OP obviously, need to be tuned down, but hell yeah they are slow,(slower than mangonels) maybe need some movement speed buff along with damage or cost nerfs
    -fire lancer… There is something called stone walls and spearman yo…
    -grens, they can be countered by equal resource of elephants, or regular HC on spread formation, or mangonels, or longbows in spread formation, or royal knights, or sipahis. And all of them is available sooner and easier to mass.
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In your definition of overtuned is included;

An age 3 unit on a civ who’s biggest hurdle is getting past age 2. Yes the Ghulam is objectively stronger than a baseline maa - but it still loses to its counters, and costs +25% for what it does.

A nerf for the dps of an expensive unit that is easily countered by 2 common units in age 2 - just ask to rescale the attack delay.

Nerf to that stats of a unit which gained +33% stats in exact proportion to a 33% higher cost.

Thinking Ghazis are a hard counter to heavy units:

Ghazis are slightly better horsemen. They hard counter archers and can survive just a bit better vs armored units. What are you gonna nerf here? Even the anti archer dps is managed by the attack speed nerf (which is closer to 13% btw)

All in all it looks like you took numbers at face value without actually seeing, or better, playing how these things are actually working.

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And grens no is not immune like S1 grens, they still lose to equal resource to sipahis, RK، Longbowmen on spread formation, or mangonels and HC on spread formation

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Compared to the very first days of AOE 4, grenadiers is more effective againast heavy units and less effective vs light units. see below:

Grenadier’s damage logic: They have a splash damage reduction rate based on the distance from the direct target. When attack a unit, the damage will be reduced by certain amount.

Stage 1. At game launch: Grenadier have 18 attack, 4.8 range and the damage reduction rate is 100%/75%/50%.
Heavy Unit: When attacking heavy unit with 8 armour, the actual damage it take is 10(18100-8), while the unit within the second radius takes 5.5 damage (1875%-8), and the unit within the third radius takes 1 damage (18*50%-8). Overall it’s 10/5.5/1.
Light Unit: as calculated above, light unit with armour of 3 takes 15/10.5/6 damage.
Analysis: with a decent attack on both armored and unarmored units and long range (can stay at a safe distance from the cavs), grenadiers almost have no direct counter from the core roster.

Stage 2. Season 3: There is a patch (season 3) that massively nerfed grenadiers. Grenadier now have 16 attack, 3 range and the damage reduction rate is 100%/66%/33%.
Heavy Unit: with armour of 8 takes 8/2.6/1 damage.
Light Unit: with armour of 3 takes 13/8.6/2.3 damage.
Analysis: Now grenadiers are massively nerfed, almost useless against armored units (10/5.5/1 changed to 8/2.6/1). Mostly because unit with the second radius takes 36% less damage. They are still effective against unarmored units, but what China lacks is not the ability to deal with light units. In late game, China relies onhandcannon and NoB to deal with heavy inf and cav, but they are both gold intensive and easily countered by culverin and mangonel. On the other hand, China heavily relies on gold mine as a means to acquire gold. The consequence of this chain effect is, China cannot effectively deal with armored units in the late game.

Stage 3. PUP: In this PUP, the devs have seen grenadiers have not been used for an entire year and decided some change. Grenadier now have 12 attack (changed from range to siege), 3 range and the damage reduction rate is 100%/66%/33%.
Heavy Unit: with armour of 8 takes 12/8/4 damage.
Light Unit: with armour of 3 takes 12/8/4 damage.
Analysis: Compared to stage 1, grenadier is more effective vs heavy and less effective vs light. So, the correct way of using them is to counter mass heavy inf and cav, and the correct way of dealing with them is to: 1. use split formation with fast melee units 2. use light range units 3. use mangonels. Please be aware, grenadiers now have less range so they cannot stay in a safe distance and have to form a cluster in order to attack, which make them easily countered. As for now, grenadiers make a good compensation against heavy, and not OP because there are plenty of ways to effectively counter. For a unit that requires 3600 more resource to unlock, it’s definitely a proper position.

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Well done, great analysis, those who are crying likely are MAA spammers that didn’t know that HC and mangonels exist.

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OP, I took a quick look through your topics and posts.

I fear you may be suffering from a bias towards a certain faction. It’s something we are all guilty of but acknowledging it can be hard.

For me I am definitely biased towards the English.

Your posts and comments generally all infer that HRE are UP or other civs are OP.

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About HRE, I wanted to see units too. I started yersterday to make a mod which will enhance HRE, there are 3 new unique units planned and one new tech. And also landmark changes

Here is the first unit I started working on :slight_smile:
image

Btw it’s not finished (and there are a lot of broken grammar but I have it already working in game)

Btw they are slower than normal knights and they have aoe damage (they cost a lot more tho, the pic I shared is kinda old)

And I removed HRE imperial knights and replaced them with the Templars , they are unlocked inmediatly once you reach to imperial. At the cost of a more expensive unit with its slower but tankier and does aoe damage + inspires nearby units.

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I will love to see that

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Maybe we need to start a new discussion about adding Teutonic Knight to HRE or Ritterbruder, a units that is very strong in melee but slow and can be countered by ranged units. i’m definitely biased to Chinese, but i also love to see HRE getting some love

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good at first but is a bad design. not because the gimmick of aoe dmg but the lack of resistance gimmick (I would prefer it have the aoe 2 cata treatment or good vs all inf including spear but waek vs heavy archers an regular horsemen) and the need of more redesign on inf for the lack of mobile counters which horsemen is not going to get a redesign but adding mid armor to the types of armor units so we have light one which cover around fast and cheap but weak, mid no weakness and enough to be on frontline and have an mix cost but weak for the lack of specialization and heavy ones for slow, specialized on tank but costly because we may get melee anti cav which horsemen cant get ditched for civ design but eventually that one too for some civs. Hre is focused on shrine why not zealot units ( templar, crusaders or maa if that one has a redesign too can speed up the capture of those) where are those implements? they are supposed to be assymetric

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i wont reveal everything bc its still a secret :slight_smile: , however if youre really interested here is what i changed about the templar (that was an old version)

My templar unit now has no inspire aura (its not working as it should, blame it on relic this time, its their fault) so scrap that. Templars are now a literal cavalry landskenecht with aoe damage with over 400 hp but slower movement and still countered like any normal knight. The training time is 80 seconds instead of the normal 60 seconds and it costs around 340 food and 250 gold per unit.

It can also activate an ability (wich it works) wich increases their attack speed.

So what are templars in my mod exactly? Theyre the imperial version of their knight. HRE has no longer ELITE knight, instead they have the templar wich its unlocked inmediatly after hitting imp age without the need of any elite upgrade (youre actually saving over 700 gold at start) but still making templars is an investment so theyre now balanced, theyre a moving tanky af landskenecht that cannot be converted by any monks and can activate an ability wich increases their attack speed but still countered by pikes and crosbows due to its slower movement.

I think this unit is in great spot, now im going to work on the other 2 units (i wont reveal them this time)

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i prefer bonus dmg protection because hre is more focused on being defensive and makes other units like lands and maa (or cheap units in general) go close to the enemy army without being overwhelmed by mass range. also that one makes early units usable. No need for aura except dmg debuff but that one is more overkill than that one described. Also add build limit for templars. they are already too gud for that price and ability

Thats the reason. eliminate heavy cav upgrade. They are now an separated unit that helps frontline

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They are a separate unit . there is no imperial upgrade, that was the point haha

im not sure if that is possible with the limited tools we have… blame on relic again for this (limited tools) .