English MAA’s are underrated. MAA’s in general are underrated.
I’m not talking about any unit’s usefulness in specific tho, this was just an example off the top of my head to demonstrate why I disagree with the point being made about every civ being able to go for any standard unit and still be competitive with all other civs, regardless of map (or, in other words, what DGPstudios said).
Maybe a better example from aoe2 (which I’m using as reference just because of familiarity and a well established meta, let’s please not get into a “aoe4 is not aoe2x2” argument) would be the opposite: you’re Japanese, which has access to FU arbalests, and are forced into making that unit vs a Britons (or Ethiopians, or anything that has a strong archer-oriented bonus) player. It may not be an impossible match up, but you’re certainly at a disadvantage and playing into their strengths, and just being slightly better won’t cut it, you’ll have to decisively outplay them to get the win.
1 Like
More the Game will be competitive on the ladder and more you will see mirror matches on the ladder if people want to reach the top.
This is why you should choose your civ before seeing the map you going to play and not seeing the map and pick your civ according to the map…
Asking for a change on the Matchmaking system that allows you to change your Civ because you know which map you will play.
It’s better when players/data want to play one civ/race because they like the uniqueness of the civ/race and try their best on every map and ask for balance change/data than play the best civ on each map.
Also if some tournament wants to seed some top player from the ladder it will be the same as here:
if it stays like this it will not be good for the game. overall on twitch, or for players in the Ranked matchmaking system.
AOE4 is not AOE2 and will never be
1 - AOE2 has 39 symmetric civs with a bonus who make it impossible to balance because they have the same mechanic it’s a 20years game with no different mechanic to compensate.
2 - AOE4 have 8 Asymmetric civs, who make tools to make it more balanced than AOE4 has some units who have different stats and have completely different Eco mechanic.
In AOE3, AOM, AOE:O, SC1, SC2 have are played like this because they have asymmetric civs design.
Sorry but I am pretty sure it will change in the future but I don’t want to wait for 3-6 months before it comes because I think they gonna be slow as I remember AOE3 and AOM release.
That’s absolutely not true.
Depending on how open expansions are, how fast you are forced into the map, how big the distance between players is on ground and on air, race advantages through pushtimings or possibility to expand in certain matchups vary alot.
Starcraft 1 is solely balanced through maps for ages for example.
Starcraft 2 reaches similar situations now since map rotation is the only thing changing in the game rn.
It is, here is a proof 4=2x2 → aoe4=aoe2x2
U mistaken assymetric from sc2 and aoe4/aoe3.
units the same: archers/pikes/cav… etc…
how u can compare it with sc2…
Aoe4 has addictive tech tree… much more similar to aoe2 than sc2, no matter hiw badly u want to believe, it’s not true assymetric.
they even approach to organisation of tournaments the same.
Give some money to a random guy, he will make tournament. LoL.
I don’t compare it only with SC2 but with AOE3, AOM, AOE:O, SC1, SC2, COH2 and even more I don t know who has the same matchmaking
An example, I was battling TOP25 Beta player in the stress test (we don’t know the current one but meeting those players mean I am not far as I win Some BO3 BO5 from them) the Top5 played almost HRE, Top10 was ENG+HRE and top25 played HRE+ENG+AbbassidD
Now put money on the line, and I will play HRE or the next big civ on every map like every other player…
The problem is that compared to any of these games AOE4’s civs are not asymmetric. They mostly use the same units with different bonuses where your example’s civs have nearly nothing in common.
This game has no meta, is not properly balanced yet and is missing the 4 remaining civs.
I am sorry but this isn’t in any way an indicator that there are only going to be mirror matches.
It will be only mirror game if you put money on the line or tournament seed some top ladder players
that’s why aoe2(even if aoe4 != aoe2) but example from aoe2, cause only aoe2 has big tournaments with different approaches on the random maps.
Aoe2 has draft, and tournament rules often restrict mirrors.
8 civ is enough for BO3.
BO5 also can be played without repeats.
it’s not sc2, there player focus on one civ, here u can ban civs/pick and make tournaments more and more interesting just with rules.
Every competitive game I’ve played is usually reduced down to mirror matches or, if the game doesn’t allow them, the top two preferred options being chosen. Aoe4 will be the same whether civs are locked in before or after the map is shown. If it is before the best generalist civs will have a very high pick rate, if it is after the best civs for that map will have a high pick rate.
Personally I prefer the map to be shown before the players civ choice is locked in because it at least gives a bit of variety map to map.
1 Like
They will patch the unbalance civ if your civ is OP… like every RTS on the market.
Also I saw some discussion about alternate maps in aoe2 and how that would translate if at all to aoe4. I think part of the reason aoe2 is popular is because it let’s you play the game your way. You can play exclusively black forest original balance patch viking mirror matches or as a less extreme example playing a late game civ on arena.
I think that this is a strong point of the aoe series and it should be carried over to aoe2. There is no point in forcing players to play Mongols on blackforest even if they are balanced because if the player isn’t having fun they are less likely to keep playing the game.
To sum up my thoughts:
- add a scaling timeout for alt f4ing from a lobby
- show players the map before they pick their civ to let them play the game how they want to.
- give as many map bans as the playerbase and queue times allow. If queue time is a problem at higher levels disable map bans for the top x% of players.
- keep the aoe trend of varying settings and map design to encourage diversity.
2 Likes
What happens at top AOE2 lvl in the matchmaking?
They have a button to play random, if pushed it means if the other player matched has it pushed as well they will play both random. it’s a tacit agreement as they all push it at the top level.
But in AOE4 you have only 8 Asymmetric civs it forces the player to play the best civ on the map if no Random system like AOE2 .
So the only choice you have if you want to win is to play the best civ per map or play randomly. sorry, but we are in 2021 and they have all big data tools to make it balance on every map they make in the matchmaking system.
1 - Players are forcing play best civs, and cant play the civ they want if they want to Win ELO rating
2 - Players with a tacit agreement play as random to avoid the fact the dev doesn’t want to add this feature to matchmaking.
Even in perfectly balanced systems players will still migrate towards a single pick because for example: it is easier to play, or is more reliable, or gives just a little more flexibility.
I agree that civs should be viable on every map but I think that map/setting variety helps to keep the game fresh and should be prioritized over perfect balance since it has an impact on a larger portion of the playerbase than competitive balance.
To be clear I definitely agree that balance is vital to the success of the multiplayer scene and it needs to be a priority. I hope that we can achieve that while giving the players as much choice and map variety as possible.
2 Likes
That sounds terrible. I wouldn’t want Aoe4 to turn into this. We already have the solution though. So make everyone pick their civ before seeing the map, use a well-balanced map pool with a variety of maps each ranked season and we can all enjoy a fair and fun game. Just like SC, SC2, WC3 have done it for years.
2 Likes
I don’t see how making people pick their civ before the map is revealed fixes this problem. If anything it makes the problem worse because instead of there being several sets of OP and weak civs based on the map it the choice is reduced to:
- picking the best generalist civ
- picking your preferred civ and hope the map suits their play style.
Option 1 puts us in the same place that we would be in if the civ was picked after the map was revealed but now we are playing the same civ every game instead of every time we roll a specific map.
Option 2 feels bad because the player feels they have no control over if they win or lose a game.
Therfore I think the best option is to:
- let players choose the map and civ they want to play (within reason)
- achieve a decent level of balance most civs are viable on most maps. (Recognizing that there are always going to be good and bad picks independent of map balance.)
The third option is to make the civs play so differently that the advantage you get from picking the best civ for the situation (map specific or generalist) is less than the hit you take for playing a civ you have less experince with. Based on what we’ve seen of aoe4 however this won’t be the case.
1 Like
u have no idea what u are talking about.
Marketing brainwashed people with fancy words “BigData/ML”.
In the end of the day, it’s same statistic.
In aoe4 u can pick whatever want.
IF:
- England > Franks
- Franks > HRE
- HRE > England
What civ will u pick as the best? Just choose the best…
Need only 3 civs to be like rock, paper, scissors → no one will pick “the best”.
Such a joke.
Either u have no knowledge about SC2. or u are lieing for whatever reason.
SC2 always stuck with balance.
Nowadays Protas are dominating with A-click.
And the problem, that Terrans/Zergs cant switch to Protos and play, they have to struggle trying to win.
And in ur favorite game SC2, if one dominated the other, it means it dominate on every map(almost every map).
In aoe, it does not mean anything, change map type and the situation will be the different.
Add +10 sheeps to the map, and loosing civ will be the best.
u have no idea what u are talking about.
Marketing brainwashed people with fancy words “BigData/ML”.
In the end of the day, it’s same statistic.
They said they have access to MS IA, it’s like Alphastars and so on