RE: The new Indian Flag is Problematic and Arguable

So, the new Indian flag for the India is very controversial, for the very same reason the previous thread was closed.

This has been addressed 13 years ago and the flag was changed to the yellow flag for India! but now they have reverted to the mughal flag they can givve rise to many tensions for cultural/religious and various other reasons.

As India is huge and 1 empire cant represnt the whole of it! the previous yelllow flag was a better representation of the all the factions.

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Make your own flag: AoE3DE Flag Maker Pack

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stop posting this literally everywhere

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So as he said in the video at 4:50 and ahead ! they havent been consistent ! They should’ve been consistent to all civs and gone for full Historical accurancy or neutrality.

A flag should have been more accurate as, 15 years ago it didnt matter for a game @ but now it does!

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This is still iritating they havent seriously considered this, if they EVER gain more audience they are going to be in trouble for this

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I agree to not use the Mughal Flag but to keep a generic or fictitious flag. Reason is the Mughal empire had a history of genocide of the native population. Its just not culturally respectful to current India.

Its as if Germany would be represented with the Nazi flag or Russia with the Soviet Union Flag or China with the Communist Flag. Please understand its a dark part of the country’s history and if the devs can properly change this that would be better for the game.

Aurangzeb annexed the Muslim Deccan kingdoms of Vijayapura (Bijapur) and Golconda and thereby brought the empire to its greatest extent, but his political and religious intolerance laid the seeds of its decline. He excluded Hindus from public office and destroyed their schools and temples, while his persecution of the Sikhs of the Punjab turned that sect against Muslim rule and roused rebellions among the Rajputs, Sikhs, and Marathas. The heavy taxes he levied steadily impoverished the farming population, and a steady decay in the quality of Mughal government was thus matched by a corresponding economic decline.

^^Above source puts its incredibly lightly

Previous Flag was fictitious but perfect. Rajputs are from Northern India not muslim. Urumi are from the south. Mahout Lancers were used by Porus against Alexander the Great way before Mughal influence. Sacred cows are from the reverence of cows in Hinduism. Sikhs are represented through natives and Nepal through the gurkha. Only part of Mughal history is the mansabdars and Agra Fort. Doesn’t make sense to have the MAIN flag be of just one hateful and genocidal part of history.

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Also the timeline doesn’t seem to add up? I’m no history buff but according to the source shared you can’t even claim that this flag is OK based on “historical accuracy”.

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True it would have to be British Raj to be historically accurate. Honestly just the fictitious flag or just one with a lion
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or chakra
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would be fine.

If it represented British India or Mughal India that just carries a lot of strife. Same with China thus I assume they got a fictitious flag.

Plus better for the marketing side of the game - We wont terribly offend you or remind you of genocide!

EDIT: Correction to earlier the Chinese flag is from Qing I have just been informed. My apologies it is not imaginary.

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Mughal flag is actually accurate now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire#/media/File:Mughal_Empire_Flags.png

Indians have many other serious historical inaccuracies but ironically you guys don’t want to address that:

  1. Brahmins didn’t rode elephants to explore treasures and ride into war. Just like other dharmic priests they are very peaceful and wanted to explore the true meaning of life with sadhanas.

  2. Indians used large amounts of horses but AoE shows them as a camel focused civilization.

  3. Zamburak is a persian weaponry.

  4. Sepoy is a East India Company unit not of Indian Kingdoms.

  5. Gauntlet sword was more prominently used by Marathas not Rajputs, also Rajputs are already represented by Camel Sowar what’s the need for another unit?

  6. There is absolutely no proper unit to represent East India? Where is the Paikas of Bengal/Orissa/Assam?

  7. Gurkha outfit in game is modern era not colonial era. They should have been mercenaries not directly recruitable as nepal sold those units as mercenaries.

Aurangzeb indeed was a tyrannous leader and so was his downfall. Even Marathas were very war like and local Rajas didn’t like them, they invited Durrani to stop their aggressive expansion. Marathas were forcefully installing their puppet rulers as part of their confedaracy. It is similar to how Napolean did back in his era.

It is good that we got Akbar as the personality for Indians who is a beloved ruler for his tolerance to all religions. Shir-u-khurshid (Lion and Sun) with green back ground and yellow stars is very historically accurate and colourful comapared to the old bland yellow version.

Really what you guys need to request is to remove those brahmin monks riding elephants killing people which is very offensive for peaceful dharmic religions. And give some horse cavalry units to Indians rather than only camels to cover more of Indian Subcontinent rather than just North West Thar.

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Sure. Ask for the civ to be redesigned.

The game is full of inaccuracies and design takes liberties. I’m ok with that but I don’t really identify with anything in the game. I respect that many people do identify with various cultures represented/misrepresented in the game.

The OP is just making a case against an (as he sees it) offensive symbol.

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Really only few Mughal rulers are hated, majority of the rulers are actually loved by the populace. Let me recount them.

Babur (He is seen as an Turkic invader from the Steppes, he was kind of ousted from his afghan-timurid homeland and was finding a new home to establish his dynasty, he is one of those disliked rulers)

Humayun (He didn’t really have a long reign, he was just trying to defend the land his father had newly conquered)

Akbar (He is one of the most beloved Indian Rulers, he is known for putting the foundation for the powerful tolerant Mughal Empire. He united north india through diplomacy and tactics. He extended a Rajput marital relationship and heritage for the Mughals. Thankfully he is the leader representing Indians in the game, he truly is Akbar the Great)

Jahangir (He had a peaceful, loving relationship with Rajputs just like his father)

Shah Jahan (He brought the golden era of Mughals building many Magnificent Monuments. He is known for his amazing architectural renovations)

Aurangzeb (he was the tyrant who finally ruined the reputation of mughals once and for all, he killed all his brothers and jailed his own father to take over power, he massacred hindu population intentionally imposing harse anti-non-islam tax such as zaziya, he is fought wars with deccans chattisgarh-orissa and forcefully annexed them but in turn he finished emptied the treasury of mughals and now farmers and non-muslims revolted all over the empire. sikh and maratha took the oppurtunity to declare independance from his tyrrany, he is the most hated mughal ruler)

Many small mughal rulers came inbetween but nobody is really significant since the dynasty was in ruins.

Indian populace remembered the mughal rule and revolted the british with Bahadur Shah Jafar (last Mughal ruler) as their figurehead. Since mughals were the unifying tolerant empire they could look upto instead of the company who was just trying to exploit and loot the wealth out into england.

India is a land of many diversities, really one civilization doesn’t do the justification for it. We need more than one to represent all the different cultures and kingdoms. Mughals in the early modern era are the only option that represent the Indians as one civilization.

Aurangzeb is the offensive ruler who created the hindu-muslim hatred which further broadened during the colonial era when British promoted things like separate hindu-muslim cricket team, separate political party, separate reservation, divide-and-rule etc. India is a huge sub continent and there are large number of cultures and kingdoms just like in Europe. Mughals are like the Romans. They were tolerant and that’s why they could give the unite the subcontinent and that’s why they were chosen as the unifyig figurehead in sepoy rebellion… Instead of calling for removing them due to some modern political hatred. We should be calling for correcting/adding more historical elements to the game.

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Ashoka Chakra and Three headed Lion are from Maurya Dynasty (Magadha Empire (Bihar) from 350 BCE… Ancient Age. It is not really fitting for AoE3 era.

I would instead prefer some historical design rather than some fictional design for political reasons. Remember we need to learn to appreciate and accept the history as it is rather than trying to create your own history for political reasons. We cannot change what happened in past. If there is some other empire that is better fitting than Mughals in AoE3 timeperiod then I have no problem in accepting it.

Yes while some may have been good the genocide of hindus were represented with that flag. Thus Im saying its not just.

But aside from politics or histrionics - That era was the downfall of the mughals and rise of the Raj - Thus putting all the elements (sacred cows for hindus, rajputs, brahmins, muslim mansabdar, gurkha rifles from WWI, and War Elephants from Porus, Urumi from the south ALL under the Mughal Flag seems irresponsible when they were relevant for 100-200 years from the 1400-1800 timeline.

Also its GENOCIDE like MASS MASSACRE of a native populations - like how is that a debate? Like why not just put a Lotus or Chakra or something else as a flag? Why that whole legacy when its rife with pain?

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Sure but why have sacred cows? Mughals slaughtered the cows barring some bans on slaughter when cattle was scarce.

The explorers are Brahmin yet its the Mughal India? It feels like such a mix but previously it was a random yellow flag. Currently its the actual Mughal Flag. Thats all.

My issue is also why is it called India? India is a modern country. Why not call it Mughal India?

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During the Mid period of Mughals, i.e during Akbar, Jahangir, Shah Jahan, the subcontinent prospered, the GDP accounted for 22% slightly behind Ming China. And remember Mughals in that time period only occupied North India so imagine the complete wealth of the Subcontinent which would be much more higher. Architecture Art Literature Trade all prospered.

Aurangzeb really did a big hit upon the reputation of the dynasty. He drained the treasury empty with his fanaticism against non-muslims. Hindustani used to be one single language. Nowhere in the world would you see a language getting divided into two based on religion. Unfortunately it did happen in India. Hindustani got split into Hindi (Sanskritised Hindustani) and Urdu (Persianised Hindustani). The word Ordu means the language spoken by Aurangzeb’s army/contingent. You can see how all this hatred start to develop after him. British used all this oppurtunity for their own divide-and-rule policy and here we are today. Split into parts based on religion. Indian brothers separated by religion. We really need to undo all those past rather than promoting it. We need to learn to appreciate and trust the Mughals as they are the one who finally gave India a unifying Identity with Delhi as its capital just like the sepoys rebellion did. In British Era indian economy just went stagnant and didn’t grow at all falling behind. They MASSACRED whoever raised voice (Jalian Wala Bagh, Rangoon Jail etc.) and took away the treasury of Indian Rajas and Nawabs.
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You are right it feels like a random mix. India is way too much diverse to be one civilization. Especially in AoE2 era (medieval era) India seriously needs to be split into more kingdoms. India is way too much diverse to be a random mix into one civilization.

Respectfully the Mughals ruled over India. It wasnt a democracy and taxes (jizya) were levied on non muslims, whereas “zakat” is a religious donation under Islamic law. It was a domination of the people, BUT Akbar and Shah Jahan were more tolerant. Once India became its own country were the people’s religious beliefs finally free.

Before the Mughals, Marathas were huge in the region, BUT I would probably oppose having the whole country be represented just by a Maratha Flag.

Just seems the use of Flags in the game is a bit random. If the game is set from 1500-1850 use the old flag which wasn’t purely one part of that timeline. Mughals only FULLY unified India between 1526 to 1690. After Shah Jahan it was pretty much a decline.

Zizya was abolished by Akbar and remained abolished in majority of Mughal period after wards for Jahangir as well as Shah Jahan. Aurangzeb re-introduced it.

The current flag is also same as Saffavid Empires flag!
Current flag is non-representative of India!

This green flag is a match for hybrid of Mughal and Saffavid flag !

I personally vote for Older Yellow flag! or if possible! Go with ANY freedom fighting flag !

Not a Single sight of Indian-ness.

Nah its not like that! Rajputs were more inclined to hand combat, and the Khanjar and various hand weaponry was Rajput Speciallity, While! Marathas were more reliant on their Elite Cav and Battlefield tactics

Yes! only during his reign!

It was never tolerant, Only was more tolerant during Akbar! rest was either terrible or less terrible

And if authentecity need to be verified!

Still culturally ! and as a civilisation ! its one! sort of Unity in Diversity!

  • Go on street any where on the WORLD! taking all game flags to their respective countries!

I BET INDIAN FLAG WOULD BE LEAST AGREED!

LEAST RECOGNIZABLE !

AND HIGHLY OFFENSIVE TO MANY!

AND TREMENDOUSLY DEBATED FLAG!

If this game was famous enough! untill now, Microsofts Twitter account would be flooded with complaints of the flag! and there were some articles about how microsoft used the the flag to represent the Indian Continent!

I simply don’t see any flag in the game which will have less than 50% acceptance in their native place !! Except for the Indian flag! Infact I’m sure people would be infuriated!

Exactly! they are not! Infact ! they have newer mordern flags!

They could’ve picked! Indian Freedom fighting flag - as the campaign in also based on that era!
Other Civs have the Empires flag coz they are small enough to represent it and not diversse enough!
that they can be represented. by only 1 empire!

India is simply NOT! its a freaking Subcontinent (only one TBH)
An “EMPIRE” simply cant cover the “SCOPE” of a CIVILISATION

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Rajputs mainly used Talwar (curved sword): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talwar#/media/File:Rajpoots_2.png
Khanjar is an Arabic Weaponry. It reached india through the sultanates.

would prefer something more colorful than yellow background with yellow sun and yellow lion.

indians actually used the mughal flag, oudh flag and various other flags during sepoy rebellion. since the calcutta flag(the tricolor) which was later adopted as the symbol of independence developed in 1906 which is pretty late for the time period of aoe3. mughal one is really the best fit i can think to be in the same period with other civ flags in aoe3.

Concept of United India developed very very late. India is just like mini Europe, with many different languages, cultures and kingdoms who were all independent to each other.

and guess what? Indians in AoE3 are represented by none other than Akbar’s personality. All his dialogues are very Indian, wouldn’t you agree? https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Akbar_the_Great#Quotes

i would be infuriated not because of flag but because of camels only. India is not a desert and it was not like they only camel cavalry. where is indian horses??
and why are brahmins the explorer riding elephants looting treasures in new world??
where is the khanda (iconic indian sword)(india needs infantry with swords)??