77 posts were split to a new topic: RTS Tournaments
unit auto queue could be used in a faster paced / more micro oriented game like Age of Mythologies, but it has no place in a game like AoE2 with a near perfect balance between micro and macro. Its too big of a change to just add to the game.
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Fine
They actually did though, not sure how long before the patch, but it was before that.
Maybe because the engine is different? Just sayingâŠ
The poll regarding this topic currently disagrees with you.
I remember Cysion asked the community about the gameplay changes and most said no. I donât know why they are doing it.
@Juggernaut8704 Iâve just realised you are the author of Historical Units and Architecture. Iâm a huge fan of your work. I wonder if you could make an infinite queue mod so we can try that out and see how it would affect the game?
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I canât really change game engine to add a feature like that. I think I can do one thing, create a tech that keeps researching itself for the same amount of time as the training time and trains the unit each time it is researched. This tech will be enabled/disabled by 2 other techs that will act like the switch. It is just a theory, didnât started any work on it yet.
I was currently working on creating a meso american unit set for all generic units of new world civs for DE:
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Pro
- Scenarios⊠?
Con
- It wouldnât be âless demandingâ. Less clicks, yeah, but not less attention from the player, since
- âŠyour resources will dwindle too fast if you let a building produce and
- âŠyouâll need to pay close attention to your queue corner or youâd have to time it somehow in the back of your mind while you engage in macro or other micro.
- In the current mechanic, you know exactly how much you produce, how much you invest, when you produce and what the result will be. With auto-queue you wonât (and if you do: see previous point)
- Also the queue boxes, how would that work? An infinite symbol? Then youâd have to differentiate between auto-queue and manual queue buildings. Too much attention needed, not properly âglanceâ-able.
- Too much dev work hours to implement a feature that too many of us would rather see spent on other features and improvements. The feature would change gameplay drastically, so it wouldnât just be about programming it into the game but also campaign redesign, AI redesign, etc)
- It would break a lot of player made scenarios that are carefully balanced or that revolve around queueing (like castle blood). It takes weeks or months to years to properly build a good scenario. Think about that. This is potential ragequits for a lot of good designers. (maybe a tad dramatic, but still)
- In the ideal situation of âenough resources to maintain queueâ, and only if, it would properly upset the balance between macro and micro, completely redefining competitive play. Death Match, lol.
- AoE 2 wasnât built for this. Itâs just that simple.
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Then⊠you know⊠just choose not to use it? It has itâs upsides and downsides.
Donât use it?
Implementing the queue should be easy. Infinitely easier than, say, fixing the pathfinding issues.
As for the balance, they will only need to spend too much time on balance if the game already has balance problems that just become more evident with AQ in place.
And AI redesign? Why?
Thatâs just your opinion.
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If the argument is âthen⊠you know⊠just choose not to use it?â then it sounds to me like more of a trap than help for newbies.
Implementation: Itâs not about hard or easy, itâs about wasted time. The dev team has an end of life. We donât want to waste valuable time on features on top of a game that still needs work (yes, pathfinding, but also multiplayer lobby, etc). The balancing problems are yet another thing that need time I donât want devs to spend on features like these. You donât need AQ to find those out, pick and choose (like recent Goth changes).
AI redesign because AI has to know if/when to use AQ. Gameplay will change, so the AI will have to as well.
Yes, my opinion is that AoE 2 is partly fun because you need a high APM and make ACTIVE decisions on how many units to train at any given time without relying on AQ. The whole point of an RTS is having compounded decisions decide the outcome. I feel this AQ would take away from that and/or create unnecessary distraction.
Edit: Slippery slope.
Or, like everything in the game, just learn when to use it and when not to use it?
If you donât want to be bothered by the donwsides and think manual queue is better then you can just not use it.
I play AoM and use it sparingly when it serves me.
They already do it, afaik(in their own way). It seems like the easiest way of programming them(I have some programming background).
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Technically he isnât wrong. ES only added AQ to Age of Mythology after finishing the game and a whole expansion, and they didnât re-add it in AoE3. I truely donât think they cared about it at all in 1998.
Actually, the AI already click on what it wants as soon as it has the ressources so adding AQ wouldnât change anything for it.
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Because in AoE3 you automatically train batches of 5 units?
Literally 5 units come out of the barracks at once.
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You can produce units 1 by 1 or 2 by 2 and so on. There is no option that automatically fills the batches for you.
Except I believe it would be a crutch for new players, breeding bad strategic behaviours and would never be the better option, so why implement it at all? Aside from that belief, Iâm ultimately most concerned with making DE as balanced and bug-free as possible before we run out of devs. Implementing features like these before fixing moonwalking siege, pathfinding, civ balancing and other more pressing matters is not productive. FIFO.
So do I, and yeah, it wouldnât be much more work than say the auto-scout feature. Youâre right, the AI may not need too much change. I was a bit too quick to assume that.
There are other âbad behavioursâ you need to let go of if you get serious about ranked. One of them is that people who are beginners create very few villagers(bad habit) and get used to it because SP and campaign allow them to. Then they get to MP and need to stop that bad habit or lose.
AQ has the same bad habit potential of anything in the game, like spamming some powerful unit(one trick poney tactic) until you play against someone who knows how to counter it and wins.
Itâs called adapt and learn.
Not true. There are instances when AQ is more effective. Knowing when to use it is part of the learning process.
And part of learning is to give up bad habits for good ones.
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Creating 1by 1 or 2 by 2 is highly innefective and micro intensive. And from what I remember, 5 units created per click/train is the default AoE3 setting that most people use.
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I assume AQ would also apply to TC and docks. So you would be taking away the most important dark/feudal hurdle for new players to overcome, training vills.
Ok, show me instances when AQ is more effective, the burden of proof is on the one who proposes/supports new features. I think you underestimate the hassle enabling/disabling AQ all the time on all the buildings will be. Try operating your buildings from the queue system⊠The decisions are NOW made beforehand, so you rarely have to worry about selecting buildings from the queue line.
You said it yourself. In the first ages, as long as you donât let the TC overwork and mess up your BO. AQ is superior because it frees up a bit of your attention to make that perfect boar lure, scout, ect.
Another good instance would be when you are in the late game with lots of resources and is pushing against the enemy base. Turn on AQ to make a balanced army and turn your attention to microing your army on the attack while trying to kill his villagers while the other player defends.
AQ would be bad in the feudal/castle age when you really need to manage your recources as best as you can.
Even then, if youâre doing a full feudal rush, it will be useful to keep the pressure.
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Except youâll have to change units once every few cycles since your opponent will change his army comp too.
This is incorrect, the AoE3 batching system does not work that way and does not resemble any kind of Auto Queue.
Yes, you can train up to a batch of 5 in one go, if you can afford the resources up front. Thatâs one major difference already.
If you ever watch a game between decent players they will queue a single unit to start the production and then later go back to the building to add the remaining 4 (or however many they can afford).
AoE3 batching, if anything, is even harder than AoE2 Singular queuing System. Itâs far more punishing if you miss the timing
Not if you build a balanced army.
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