precisely!
When people see them too, they really over commit to trying to snipe them down. So sometimes I try to fake out like I am going to charge then draw them back, and watch all those goons get a little too close.
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i actually keep urumi, war elephants, and chakrams all in deck tbh
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ah ok, nice to have some options. Chakrams can be worth it for musket civs I think but they really need the natives for the extra range and HP (do you also use native HP boost cards and blood bros?) to be really cost effective…
The way I look at it for my eco I can send those cards once each (3000 coin) or I can save and buy myself 100 sepoys later prolonging my low vil pop time. And I can just send urumi instead and they fill the same purpose but are better and cheaper.
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i use the native hp, on DE the chakrams are now +2 range, not heavy infantry and also happen to tech to champion with the infinite shipment! since elephant combat now affects sufi, then having nat hp/speed and the fact that terror charge now stacks onto sufi speed along with the native cards… the two are pretty nasty. i think infinite sufi is champion now too. in any case they have like 1200 hp and 7 speed, and chakrams are extremely tanky as well, letting me devote more pop space to howdah & infantry. also tigers. always tiger spam
i should say i still send urumi most times but a huge pop of elephants is pretty powerful, and obvs chakrams add some extra splash dps and are cheaper to send now also
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I´m not saying hp for cav is useless, of course is useful, anything extra is good, and hp is generally the only dimension of a unit that is in the same level of relevance as the atk, so hp and atk are like on the same level, at the most basic level of statistics +50% hp is the same as +50% atk but obviously in some deeper level, one or the other starts to be more or less relevant, so, just to clarify, i´m not saying a cav with 500hp is better than a cav with 800hp just because has 51atk instead of 50atk and atk is more relevant in this case, no, i say that in the same total value, attack heavy is more preferable for some units, and hp heavy is for others generally, if a unit that should be preferably atk heavy is hp heavy but its total value is higher than the others then is better, but if it´s the same then is better the atk heavy one. Would you agree than cannons are atk heavy? that they are meant to deal more dmg than to take it, then i say that is a similar case with cav, cause it counters the same things, skirms are very fragile and costly, so cannons are good because they deal a lot of damage to them, as well as cav should, the same for cannons, they are super fragile and quite costly, you rather have some fast, high-atk cav to deal with them as fast as possible to stop the heavy dmg you´re receiving from them, or you rather a high hp cav like mamelukes to kill cannons that may have 99% left hp when you deal with the cannons but you take an eternity to kill them and now all your skirms are just gone? As i said, i´m not saying hp is worthless in a cav unit, by any means no, see mameluke, if you ask me if i rather have a cav unit with same pop, cost and everything but one with 1000hp and 100atk and the other with 2000hp and 70atk, i would rather choose the latter, cause yes, i prefer more atk but the total value is higher in the latter, if it were 2000hp and 50atk, as it is the same value, then yes, i would choose the former one, but the latter is better in general, so what i meant by what i said about the mahout, is not that is only meant for tank and deal no damage and for that is worthless, i just pointed out that that was the side it was leaning to, i did not tried to say that mahouts are already in that extreme, i just wanted to make notice that it was almost the same value for both units but mahouts have significantly more hp so its more oriented to the tank side than the sowar that has significantly more atk and is oriented then more to the side of the high DPS party; i didn´t say (or didn´t tried to say at least) mahouts are trash, didn´t say mahouts are just a waste of res, etc. I hope i make myself clear, but just know that the part when i say that higher dmg for the cav is just my opinion and preference 
(For example, i think musks are a unit that it should be preferably on the hp heavy side, because they normaly protect cannons, so they should absorb a lot of damage to make battles longer, and that longer time is so useful to cannons to deal a lot more damage, the main point of unit combinations is to combine their strenghts and mitigate their weaknesses, so if cannons are fragile combine them with janissaries, if mamelukes are tanky combine them with high damage skirms for example, it´s just about seeing the big picture imo).
dude did u ever play treaty at descent level ? all ur claims are far from practical . camels just suck thats the fact u cant change that , who the hell is gonna serve u 50 unprotected skimernser to get hit by sowar ? in practical half ur sower will die even before getting close to ski
and then also if they have some musk in front or some goons to protect , ur sower cant do a ■■■■ to those ski . and can u micro them to just to hit ski in treaty ? if yes then either u have a super computer to help or u r just dreaming . lastly half the time u use cav to tank demage or just flank cannons , in which sower are worst , u ned to learn treaty army composition and how to use them first .
india just bad in treaty . yes they have good musk ski and elephant but they dont have good anti cannon , ur gurkha sepoy will just looss to any cannon spammer . u have try very hard as ur seige elephant are just basically countered by every single unit in game , they are ran ge cav even ski has bonus vs them and their range is so low , how can u expect them to do well vs a good player who know how to micro cannons ? u may kill his cannons but u will loss all ur seige elephants for sure in doing that .
imagine sending seige elephant vs a ski+goon combo . ski has bonus vs seige elephant as they are range cav , good has bonus vs them as they are artilary , culverins are very good vs them as seige elephant are tagged artilary , heavy infantry have bonus vs them in mele as seige elephant are tagged cav. and mele cav just attack fast mele and seige elephant dont have mele resistance .
lastly at any moment when opponent has some cannons on feild and u got a few good cannons hit , then its gg , u will be pushed u cant train fast enough to replesh troops fast after 1-2 good cannons hit and u will lose ground .
all u can do is either try very hard to keep cannons out of feild or just run , but runners are always at disadvantage . plus indias eco is not super good either to sustain long, once ur traded gold is over ur eco is just weak .
absolutly wrong again . hp and attack are not equal when it comes to mass units ,
hp >>> attack in practical fight . why ? think , its very easy to understand .
50% more attck means u just do 50% more demage thats all , but 50% more hp means u will tank 50% more but when u survive 50% more duration u will go 50% more demage by just the fact u survive 50% more so u tank more and demage more by having more hp , same is not the case with attack , specially true for cav .
lastly hp is more importsant becoz u need to keep ur troops number high on ground to deal more demage , if u r lossing troops fast due to low hp u will have less troops to fight at any moment in feild , that will make ur opponent trade more cost effectively .
summary if u ever have to choose between hp or attack in cav , go for hp .
lastly again u r totally wrong musk need mot attack than hp . in a practyical fight u will tank by ur hand cav and deal demasge by ur musk and ski , ur demage will be coming from ur art and ur range unit and ur tankiness from ur cav . for musk its totally better to go for attack in most cases .
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not worth to keep chakram now , 11 units are not much and they die so fast becoz of low range they stand in front of ur gurkha , they tank the demage and die fast, u will hardly notice any pop advantage over ur opponant.
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actually when you think about it based on your his stats not liking units with high overkill stats he would agree HP make more sense, but there is more to it too. Since there resist that magnify HP. If sowars were really that good we would be seeing pros use them, Now I have not seen much India in DE TR (but I also barely watch it, and all are focused on new civs) in legacy, no pro would ever use camels in TR. a little faster train would only make them good in a pinch where one was really under poped and just needed something anything on the field.
Take for instance Jannisaries a low almost useless attack, yet highest HP, mean they do not die much and are in position to fight longer than other units. People think they are weak to hand cav because of only a 2x multiplier… but since they actually do not die very easily to hand cav deliver more DPS through the life of the unit. To make up for that however you do need to mix them with a high DPS unit.
well you did try to tell me I was wasting my res on mahouts… yet not using any other evidence from the stats of the game and clearly it was not an issue. mahouts deliver more damage over the life of the unit overall than 3 sowars will in real use, so you are greatly over exaggerating how much more attack sowars have vs mahouts…
I would say a well balanced unit is preferable to any thing with extremes, which is why hussars are really the best cav by design and overall general use.
Sometimes when you take a fight you got to expect to get punched in the face too and if the hypothetical armies use cannons to kill my inf, but cant kill mamelukes and all that is left in the end is mamelukes then that was a victory. But the point was, hackapell units are not as game winning cards.
cav need to be tanky over high hitters because they have to brave the front lines, and get into enemy territory deep in the range of most units. Cannon stay in the back so thus would be silly to be as tanky and need to deliver the damage, I do not get the relevance of this comparisson.
If you trade evenly his culvs and cannons for your seige eles then congradulations you met a fair match and a GG, whats left to fight is infantry and cavalry and India generally does better on this, but theirs train faster. So you have brought balance to the game. Tip it over by using the early trade, low coin high pop diet India, to make the civs disadvantages its strengths.
BTW the way I play India is exactly to counter Skirm goon combos. In tr they just cannot stand up to a strong melee civ and have to be behind walls or kite away the map position. Its when people spam muskets or grenadiers that become more problematic, and I then do train more gurka.
We need solutions not a full topic about which cav unit is better. Mahouts need a better pathfinding and sowars a bit more HP maybe, but India need more love than that.
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u cant just counter good ski without strong cav oe artilary , thats why i always use good faith agrement have some art from britz . its not enough to continously make art with it , but its still somthing.
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gente a índia só precisa treinar falconetes e treinar mais rápido sua infantaria e pronto # VagrantBloom811 # Ekdal1378# howlingwolfpaw #SecretHunter91 # dansil92# PratUshh
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Good faith is well worth it for that reason. If you could use export only to train falconets from towers once you sent the final brit brigade shipment that would be interesting, and worth setting your economy to the advanced settings at the consulate. No one really sends this in SUP so I doubt would ever be noticed to make falconets as most spend the export sooner.
But for those asking, I do not think India should get trainable falconets unless they cost export. Lets keep India unique and not just another profile of a euro civ. Indias strengths are being a melee civ, and there are so few good ones, for true asymetric civs
Which is why I post here, to be constructive, but first we really need to properly assess the weaknesses within the civ, adding to is pandoras box. (why not let aztec get them too?)
With all indias assets Camels seem fine but I think to buff them, that once in imperial desert terror can becomes a 500$ coin tech to research, or still be sent as an age 2 card. No one will notice it in SUP, and TR will save a card and make camels available to use in a pinch as a fast train spammable unit that India lacks.
Sepoy train time untouched, but the red jackets for Gurka could also do a 10% train buff or something. ( I look at how otto is ok with slow train time but its because it can mass abus quickly, but india can’t)
Urumi- Decrease shipment time by half, by what means this is determined to not effect SUP is not determined. Possible solution, happens with age 5 TC tech that upgrades natives could make natives cards (chakrams and war ele, and urumi) arrive faster, or have a tech at the consulate that shortens shipment times.
Mahouts- fix pathing obstructions… as it is mahout will have a path then a unit goes in front of it, and it then circles around the whole army to never get to its target it decided it wanted to attack. You really have to guide them. Fix so units try to avoid the elephant and give a small area around it. this could also help it work in siege mode since they often just stand there.
Give siege ele a modest siege resist, culvs are just too good to them for how strong all other units are… I think all other units still need to be strong to stop base running, so I propose make culves trade better
flail ele should not replace mahout. They need a rework to either be better vs cavalry or as a better raider. Maybe they could do less dmg to skirms but have a good stun mechanic.
These are my suggestions to make India fun and playable.
dude , u have idea what u r saying ? good faith agrement is fine , its neither op nor bad .
who is asking making folconet trainable for india ? tho tradistionally mugals did have folconets in thier empire .
india NO WHERE close to be called as mele civ , u have one good mele unit mahauat that also cost lots of wood , also they have huge path issue , u cant push with them like u do with husser , u have to wait for right moment to spam them and micro them ,
india is predominantly a range civ , ur go to combo is hawdah and gurkha . which is quite cost effective vs most civ .
camels are not fine , they just straight bad even with two cards , and india dont lack a fast unit , elephant train time is pretty good so making camels fast train , not gonna make any difference , india need faster inafnatry. camels are ok in sup doesnt mean they are viable in treaty.
giving seige elephant , seige resistance also not gonna solve issue , better remove range cav tagg from it or give it some range so it can do its job from dying from ski due to their bonus vs seige elephant.
1, I am confused… when did I say this was a OP card or bad? Its actually a pretty good card, I send it 2-3 depending how things go because then instantly when I get to age 2 I can send my 4 otto vills instead of waiting another 3 mins or so and then also switch to ports in time to age up cheaper and make cheaper TCs into age 3. If you miss that then it really slows you down.
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Welcome you seem new to the conversation but it is mentioned many times and recently by a couple that India needs Falcs and that would solve all the problems.
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You must not understand india very much to say that. You have Mahouts, but alone they are weak. So you have to add in tigers, and urumi, and civ gets bonuses in hand attacks. Even sepoy really shine as melee units. The civ has 7 regular melee units to call upon (tiger, mahout, sowar, urumi, war elephant, flail ele) , most civs get 2, hussar and pike/halb. It is the only civ with a melee unit that does range damage to counter HI. It is very much a melee civ and because people play it wrong, want to turn it into not much more than a euro civ.
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if howda gurka were so effective then people would not be complaining how weak india is in TR. those are hearty and not bad combos to use sometimes but Indias true strength is not in those units.
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What would you do to camels to make them viable? they are for SUP games for age 2 because mahouts need to be an age 3 unit. They are not meant to be an outstanding unit… fast speed, high attack and fast train time is a great bonus and I had suggested about how to lose a card which you only seem to call out problems and not offer solutions on.
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That is a possible solution which I hinted upon but offered the flaw that siege ele are just too fast for that and would be too tanky and unstoppable without culvs, which with speed could just avoid. Its a really unique unit and not just a walking mortar. But coincidentally the bonus was made so that skirms have the same amount of hits to kill a siege ele with its 1300 HP as it would a mortar with 555… but no one really thinks its a good idea to snipe mortars with skirms (but then they are closer)
With a strong melee composition the siege eles also are further back from skirms and they are plenty busy dealing with or running from the melee wall. then all the siege ele has to do is focus down its targets. most of your army is ahead of you and they can more around easier too.
Also note, to balance siege ele around culvs creates a imbalance because Culvs are better then Siege ele and they will always win the culv wars especially in conjunction with its cav tags. But if we make it so only artillery can counter it and it is also the counter to artillery then when matching them up like that the siege ele looks weak. But when you can give the anti artillery edge to india with a resist (still killable!) then they are fulfilling their roll and Euro then has a lot of options to counter siege ele that are not the unit its meant to counter.
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see above post meant to tag you
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We need to rescue this topic, India hasnt been update for some patches, and they need it before new coming civs
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