XDDD bro India already has enough tools to be a powerful civ in treaty, especially since the last patch they improved India, It is annoying that you have to propose changes to the consulate
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Indian Units specs and uniqueness seems like they are made to resist whatever you throw at them and hence their train time is slow !
But when u actually test that things go side ways, because none of the units are as strong as they should be!! none of their units are truely a late game unit or can achieve those stats
In treaty as India! either you strike ASAP with 4 different kinds of units or you rely somewhat on ur mate to use their Major unit and be the support backup for it! Indian units are exceptionally good at providing reinforcements and backup, but as a strike force, they even have hard time against Aztecs (which is a great civ, but ideally in late game it should be weak against India, but thnx to lack of canon 
aztec with war dance easily beat Indian units, if u fight head on)
Taj Mahal’s peace ability, some times works Wonders.
But There is no such Royal Guard/OP/Exceptionally good unit, which u can truely rely upon, apart from Urumi, which if u carefully look at , they are supposed replacement of a falconet.
What India needs is atleast 2-3 of these changes:
- Arsenal Upgrades
- Slightly Faster train time
- better late game wood trickle/source/grove
- card to Convert mohout/rajput wood cost to gold, Age 4
- Dutch Consulate
- Zamburaks Range resist back to 30%, as it was earlier
- Russian Consulate
- Tweak British and other consulate buff to 10% as earlier offcourse with some balance in mind
- Give siege ele more Range atleast 34, after Age 5 upgrade
- Decrease blocking radius of mohouts, Improve mohout pathing and attacking
P.S. My personal favourite would be Siege ele range + Dutch Consulate
Please elaborate 
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Problem is most of these changes will also affect 1v1 balance.
Buffing brit consulate will make their rush stronger which is something we really don’t want.
Also giving siege elephant is not the best because these units are very mobile and tanky.
Wouldn’t mind zambs with 30% rr since these units are quite weak overall and the nerf was more intended to dragoons.
Converting mahout wood cost to gold can be reasonable as long is a very late game option
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tanky and mobile is only what they have ! but on the other hand! they are killed by skirms or basically every unit in the game and have less armor than a canon.
And as they are a culv+mortar they deserve atleast the usual culverine range of 34. The current scenario is, that they have 28 base range and 30 range after the age5 upgrade,same applies on cheaper flaming arrows.
If age5 upgrade can grant range to be 34 that will be better!
30 range is simply useless if its a culv and even more worhtless if its a mortar.
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Man Most 1v1 games do not reach 20 minutes all civi after 20 25 all civis be strong depend on the player
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I think these guys so do not know how to fight India and gets scared of it becoming a decent civilization in long no treated games.
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the question of the elephant with cannon he had remained weak what India needs and real cannon with something like the falcons, the elephant with cannon has a lot of hp more and inutil everything kills him because and he tells how cannon and cavalry
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Indians can do fine in Team Treaty, but in 1v1, they have some nearly unwinnable matchups.
What is your solution if you are matched in 1v1 against Swedes in Treaty? Caroleans are created 2 to 4 times faster and trade fine against Gurkhas, while any canon you get from the Consulate can easily be managed with Culverins.
The same scenario is nearly identical against any civ that relies on Skirm + Goons.
I’ll gladly give you that Siege Ele are versatile, Sepoy building military is very useful and wonders can be good, but none of the tools Indians have helps bypass their huge problems in Late Game.
I agree any changes should not affect Early Game Balance.
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They just don’t want India buffed in case it will affect their 1v1 games. On the contrary, I can’t say much to talk about how it affects 1v1 balance respectively either
I did complain a lot about treaty imbalances, and re-brought issues for treaty balances. I did see that some of them got implemented in that big balance change one. Dutch got a better lategame eco for one. But the battle for fixing late-game wood problems is still a war to win. Guess you just gotta be persistent, and think of ideas that don’t mess with people’s 10-20 min rush games
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Except the consulate suggestion, I don’t see any of these affecting the early game
Additional thing I WISH to see is:
- Elephants healing in area, rather than just one unit at a time, after healing upgrade from the Temple.
- FFS a better civ flag!
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I think their train time is fine right now thanks to temple upgrade boost camels train time and migrants, I like zamburaks to kill lakota’s cav or similar. Also I like the change to mansabdar units pop, now we can use mansabdar elephants too. About canons I think that Mahouts should do their job, I dont understand why they have panalties vs Heavy Infantry unlike spanish lancers or their range. About wood, the infinite crates are fine, you dont need anymore, they are faster than villagers and usually I have 3 villagers gathering wood, faster than 3 factories.
Thinking about consulate I would remove Portuguese and give them Sweden maybe with some arsenal upgrades like drums, a mine (for karni mata, why not?) or something similar. Other option I have think about is change Ottomans, giving them a Foundry Wagon.
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My experience with experienced players in treaty is that India must go mass howdahs, with siege support of siege elephant and go mahouts if player just mass skirms. With dutch i wasnt able to kill mass howdahs (in a game limited to industrial) i was massing skirms and ruyters but they were incredibly good at killing skirms.
I dont think that india needs any balance changes
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On most maps, cavalry training time is not that much of an issue (is you compare with the huge difference for infantry).
European cav. training time: -85%
Indians camels: -70%
Indians Elephants: -80%
Not a huge difference IMO, though note that on Upper Andes (again, one of the most common map for Treaty), the extra -15% make Europeans civ. have instant cavalry, a luxury no other civs can get.
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I just tested to be sure:
2 Howdah + 2 Mahout VS 10 Skirm + 10 Ruyter
Indian army = 1900 ressources, 26 POP (or 22 POP with card)
Dutch army = 1600 ressources, 20 POP
With no micro, the only way Indian win if by having the Mahout rampage the skirms with the Ruyter focusing on the Howdahs. Even with Skirms + Ruyter only attacking the Mahout (worst play by the Dutch player, but melee units are focusing by default) until they die, the Dutch win with about 4-6 Skirms alive.
Howdah VS 5 Skirms
Again, the Howdah is a bit more expansive and is more pop without an Age 4 card. If has more speed but is totally outranged and if wayyyy slower to train.
(FWI: Howdah train in 60 seconds or 12 seconds with all upgrades VS Skirms at 33 seconds or 8.25 with cards)
Skirms win all the time, with 2 of them alive. (same with 2 howdah VS 10 skirms or other multiple of 1v5, as this is more or less same cost and POP)
Personal experience can be useful, but if it can be debunked in 15 minutes in the editor… maybe it’s best not mentioned.
As from my personal experience, I play with mass howdahs at times! and they are pretty decent unit ! but against a dutch i dont even dare to take those out ! effectively speaking fighting head on against dutch is so much resource and unit drain.
And whever unit India have Dutch have an easily available counter to it ! and most of India’s combos are worthless against Skirm goon of dutch.Even Siege ele are killed by skirms very easily.
Unfortunately they have the Worst pathing in the game !!!
Imagine a cav unit written as the best unit of the civ, in civ decription, but have the worst pathing in the whole game! thats mohout for you.
Actually in a game that depends heavily on skill, personal experience weighs a lot. Thats why prós say china is okay and most players say its weak.
The example i used was in a 20 min treaty with a team (the only one i play) and the indian players that i am refering are 1900 elo up. Howdah can destro skirms in melee
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india just need train infatry more fast and 1 factory for heavy canhons just this…
Interesting point!
I tried it. Howdah can actually win, but only if the Skirms stay in place and there is no good focus.
Howdah win with about 15% HP left.
However, this was the only scenario. Howdahs can’t win if the Skirm’s player micro his units away of focus fire in the case there are multiple ones. The Splash damage did not seem to change much.
So yeah, you were right on the fact Howdahs can actually beat skrimishers, though I’d say that this is far from a hard counter and is also a huge gamble with expansive units. (Note that I did not upgrade the units for the test, so keep in mind Dutch Skirms have many more cards + Advance arsenal to upgrade them while Indian elephants only have 2 cards.)
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As a mass howdah user I use this only in last case scenario ! when there are less skirms and they are unprotected n alone ! in any other case, its a loss of time n resource,as well as a huge risk to howdahs and other units.
Howdahs are mainly used to counter good cavs like gendarme, and delay musks or pikes, and in worst case, as a sacrifice to kill cannons!
In any other case howdahs will always be a bad trade.
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A lot of these issues could be solved if there was a separate patch for treaty, which esoc patch did.
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