I already suggested that a long time ago in these forums. It didn’t get much popularity since it got overshadowed by other more hot topics at the time (buffing/nerfing Sweden and really bad game crashing). There are a select group of people on these forums that play a lot a of treaty, but I don’t think it’s enough of a voice to call for something dramatic like that.
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@GMEvangelos This has happned to me alot!
Popular civs like: Japan France Sweden.
and
The overrated game mode of: 1v1
takes all the limelight in the forums.
And the Issues of less popular civs, ESPECIALLY India, are rarely heard/discussed of.
Arguably india is one of the best civs in the game, on par with Japan,Sweden,French etc.
The difference is that India requires a lot of wood and people have a high learning curve for macro.
I think an infinite mango grove shipment in industrial age will not be gaming breaking, but giving them cannons is.
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This sentence should be a meme now on! Everyone says India OP n oll that stuff! still no one plays it
ESPECIALLY in late game !! India is decent and have lot of potential to be a great civ but nowhere near any top civs when u look at civs as a whole.
I dont understand how people can say that a Civ is so OP when :
- It doesnt have a true canon.
- Dont have a good cav to kill canons. Even skirms can kill sowars in some cases!
- The Main cav is Overpopped and Slower than usual cav + it trains slower i.e. Mohout
- The Anti Artillery, i.e. Siege ele is slow n costly to train, and have 4 less range than a culv, and 10 less range than a mortar!
- Siege ele 6seconds of reload time, thats equal to a culverine n Mortar
- The civ have no particularly OP unit.
Having a work around to kill a simple cannon, and having a dedicated unit/cannon to do a task have alot of difference and cost.
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Sure thing.
That’s because it is true.
Cause it has a steep learning curve in the early game. Needing wood to build your villagers is different and something people are unwilling to work around. The same is true for Dutch, to a lesser extend. They are very powerful, but not very popular.
Other than great bombards. It also doesn’t need it. Almost half the civs in this game don’t have cannon. Would you give cannon to China? or Aztecs? or heaven forbid, Japan?
Sowars are so effective against skirmishers it isn’t even funny. If your sowars get killed by skirms you are either hopelessly outnumbered or hopelessly out teched.
Siege elephants are very good against artillery. Despite the lower range, their mobility makes up for it. They are much, much, much, much more mobile than any other cannon in the game (maybe except the leather cannon).
The howdah is also very good at killing artillery.
With the right cards it trains decently fast given their power. And slower train time can be compensated by additional production buildings.
Compensated by higher HP, higher damage, higher move speed.
All their units are powerful on their own.
Sepoy is on par with royal guard muskets.
Gurkha is on par with royal guard skirmishers.
And that’s without taking the consulate into consideration.
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I think u should re-read the replies above, u’ll find each n every reply for ur doubts
All of the Work arounds you have suggested, are mostly a compensation and compulsion that an Indian player have to do already,and somewhat impractical and many of them are wrong
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Consulate armies are slow and u cant depend on them, as export is not readily available.
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Apart form Sepoy no other unit is on par with Royal Guard units.
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Japan China have their own Cheaper! Cannon! that are way more efficient in terms of their roles, cost ,pop and range!
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For whatever they are worth, Sowars are very weak and maybe u dont know , but they cost 2 pop, and they certainly are not a 2pop worth unit, no one even makes them TBH untill worst case
BTW Howdah and siege ele, both are killed by Skirms, also do check Siege ele resist vs a canons resist, a siege ele is always at disadvantage.
The only thing u said and Im glad to agree is:
Skirms counter siege elephants yes, but it shouldn’t be easy to just snipe elephants with the skirms when you have a mass to protect it. You have plenty of time to react and move your elephants back before they get sniped.
If everyone says it is for a reason!
Same reason why there are more than 5 different threads complaining about japan
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thats just another work around again!!! what u say theoritically sounds good but is not practical. When there are mass armies fighting ! a 30 ranged Siege ele need alot of space to move to go near a well protected canon, but what if there is a 34 ranged, culv? Skirm? Dragoon? Halb? Musk? cav?
Literally every unit in the game kills siege ele! I even tested against mass Villagers!
And thnx to the worst pathing units in the game! u cant expect elephants to obey ur simplest of commands when they are in battle
There is a difference ! U’ll only hear about India being OP, only in replies when someone says that India needs more attention.
And most of these people are who are being crushed by a sepoy rush once in their life and never played as India ever, in late game or so.
While for Japan it seems like Everyone just Knows it as a fact.
If India was So OP no matter how difficult to master people would definitely play it in treaties and late game.
There is a reason for why no one plays India, coz India is has so many minor things missing that are basic to many civs in the game.
Pathing on this game is awful, I 100% agree
Wrong, its not just the sepoy rush that is strong.
The civ has access to age 2 skirm/goon combo, urumi shipments which are insanely strong, mahout(pathing kinda makes that unit suck sometimes though) and infinite urumi shipment on age 4.
And on top of that they can all in rush by sending 2 military shipments back to back and still outscale many civs ecowise even if the rush fails.
Also the civ is extremely flexible and versatile as you have a lot of options. It is hard to learn them i agree with that, but once you do the civ is extremely strong, which is why people don’t want to see another buff to them
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Its about late game, the lack of canon (Moreover! anti canon!) and no wood in late game is big factor!
Im not asking for a true canon! but a “efficient” ANTI-CANON is a BASIC need! and just slightly better train time!
And a major issue that requires alot more attention is mohouts pathing ! EASILY the worst pathing in the game I can bet anyone on that! No other unit have such DUMB pathing!
Otherwise my suggestions would be not to give a falc or factory but:
They do need to fix the pathing overall. But yep, it makes it even worse for mahout, also even worse when combining that with the attack move not working properly
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Flaming Arrow and Flying Crow (that you can get for free with Infinite shipments) are relatively fine for their civs. That being said, Natives civs also have issues for sure.
This is only true before Late Game (the whole point of this discussion).
Sepoy have more HP than a Royal Guard Musk in Late Game. That’s it.
They have less attack, a cost of 20% more, train in double the time, need I go on?
Please keep in mind that in Late Game, Europeans civs normally have normally +30% HP and attack with cards and Advance arsenal (+10% speed and HP, +15% attack). Indian Infantry only have 15% Hp and Attack (and one card that increase melee attack if played).
Thus Gurkhas have 1 more range than a regular Skirm, but everything else is worse in Late Game (cost is similar).
Wouldn’t you agree that the Late Game Indian Infantry is worse than the Europeans ones?
Again, no one wants to give Indians more options before Late Game, they are strong enough there
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dude you get my words !!! nice
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I do not see problem in which the Indians have access to cannons since there are colunbrins that can be used from it against the elephants with cannon. I do not understand why they no want to support that India has a cannon, since the Musk and Skimish and Cannons of Europeans are much cheaper, there are more card updates, fast in training you to understand these things that asked only is It was 4 or 30 min games or more game
Bro eas thing I suggested and just for treated and or long games everyone knows that India and strong in rush more where I am tempting to arrive and nimguen will have a canhao and trains fast at age 2, you are fleeing the concept of my topic
This is literally another forum post of 1v1 balance versus late-game treaty balance, lol.
It’s true, but in the context of just the late game, you really start feeling the sluggishness and urge for faster infantry production. Your units are just too slow to get on the battlefield to counter what’s already there. You can’t keep up max pop as easily all the time, because half or 1/4 of your units are still training or walking to the battlefield. Thus, you’re always put at a numbers disadvantage of units shooting each other on the battlefield, regardless of how strong or on par your units are. Plus, by the time India’s getting the proper infantry counter unit on the battlefield, carded-up European civs are like halfway done loading up dangerous artillery units and massing a different unit type. Just give India an Age 5 tech to assist them keep up to speed. Look at the Haudenosaunee in the recent patch - they got their unit production speed buffed, why can’t India? (for late-game purposes)
Once again, you’re not wrong, but people are always throwing massive armies against each other in treaty. Sowars (like other 2 pop cav) can get mowed down if not committed in massed. But if you commit to a mass of them (as with any 2 pop cav), you lose military space for other units and goons are on their way to the battlefield in less than a minute. They’re not as worrisome as Spanish lancers, but they definitely kill faster than hussars. And I don’t even consider them as threatening as hussars. I know that if I’ve got a ball of infantry, I know my mass of infantry will at least survive long enough for goons to come and support them. And quick infantry replenishment isn’t an issue. Yes sowars are strong, but they don’t turn the tide so dramatically that they fully compensate for a lack of cannons.
Yeah, when I see some howdahs in a treaty game, I know I’m gonna lose 2-3 pieces of artillery since they can pop-shot my arty and are so tanky. But also, I know it’s a suicide mission for them, and I don’t see Indians constantly producing them because I see their score dropping if they keep doing this, and I know they are a big pop-consumer. I literally just focus all my gunpowder units to shoot the howdahs, and then micro my artillery to keep hitting enemy infantry. But it’s never a long-term strategy for India and it doesn’t really make it in their favor.
Also, when it’s a fight between gurkhas/sepoy versus musk/skirmishers, it can go either way as you said so yourself, they are on par with each other. But superior artillery will win this stalemate, and that’s something India can’t do - India can’t supplement their DPS with powerful cannons like other civs can. I’ve observed in treaty that they are usually just sending suicidal elephants to keep the enemy from getting an edge on artillery, but other than that, it’s the same mass inf. vs mass inf. with flanking cav. And they are shit out of luck without that artillery support.
China and Japan can get away with no artillery, one reason being that they have more military pop space to spare to win by numerical advantage. Literally, you can win by numbers. 40 skirms versus 60 chu ko nu… you just literally have more pop space to play with your enemies, adding lots more DPS and HP.
Aztecs doesn’t have these advantages. Even when I play as Russia versus Aztecs and have weaker infantry, it’s really not a concern when I am backed up by so many horse cannons protecting them. You say that Aztecs don’t need cannons - yeah, in 1v1s and rush games, they can win Age 2 when no one has cannons, but I know they feel the grunge when Age 3 falconets come out. In NR40, I always feel comfortable playing against an artillery-lacking civ like them, because I just abuse the hell out of that artillery advantage over them. I haven’t seen them successfully keep barging all their units into my wall of musks and cannons. India is similar, but tougher imo with more options.
But yeah, you’re not conceptually wrong, but practically speaking in the context of a treaty game, India has issues
Plus, OP said in the title of his original post to be about treaty
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I hope devs listen to this, or else this will just go under the rug, below a tons of Nerf/buff Japan/Sweden.
And people will be just keep over-discussing unnecessary topics.
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Thank you for commenting friend, I really hope that my suggestions are implemented this had not affected anything at the beginning of the game the addition of the church and a factory and some decrease in the training of infatery and cavalry will greatly improve India in Treaty and Long Games… sorry bad english
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funny last update russia get card for 40%- in arty train, I did not see anyone asking
Well, they did listen to some treaty balance suggestions, as seen in the recent updates. Let’s recount:
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Aztec units costing gold instead of wood, plus a slight eco boost. Skull knights walk faster = win
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Dutch late-game eco = win
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France gendarmes nerfed (again), native cards nerfed, and took away mill card so Fur Trade is less OP = win
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Haudenosaunee training time = win
But Haudenosaunee wood issue (major) = no win -
Indian Mansabdar less pop = win
But the real, major issues above like you stated (a reliable cannon, train time, wood, consulate options) = no win -
Japan nerfs (daimyo - major, ashigaru walk speed) = no win. (Why???)
But training times reduced from military buildings (buff) may seem to encourage more traditional, forward-base building gameplay… have yet to see that momentum though. -
Lakota siege nerf = ??? Never had that be a problem, Lakota is a LOT more effective face-to-face using teepees
Lakota also has a wood issue (major), and struggles to deal with artillery (somewhat of an issue. Have you ever played Lakota versus Sweden???) = no win -
Otto got a food buff = ??? I didn’t know Otto was struggling or needed it
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Russia’s increased Strelet Range, and Engineering card = win
But my poor, beloved oprichniks… = no win. It’s my opinion, and I am biased as a Russian treaty main. But when good players are responsive with goons, it’s not OP -
Sweden’s Carolean range was nerfed and their light calvary multiplier nerfed = win, but still one stubborn son of bitch to deal with. So easy to overwhelm with artillery, and so easy to defend those artillery with anti-heavy cav Caroleans
Hopefully the devs will look into this one and respond. I do know that a lot of the player base appreciated the balance changes in the recent patch. I’m hoping they look into these other issues and do it again.
I actually suggested some time ago that Russia should get faster artillery. Russia is famous for building a fort or blockhouse and then spamming instant infantry for gain map control. But having done this many times in treaty, this is only temporary as the lack of artillery support stops your push from going any farther. I have seen good players respond well to these surprises, and when they have artillery behind walls, Russia can’t push into a base with infantry alone.
Russia’s fort running tactics have been nerfed, and Russia’s oprichnicks have been nerfed twice by removing the cav box and reducing its seige damage. Now this makes Russia have to fight, face-to-face like all the other civs, and it can’t do that well with weaker musks, melee unit (halberdier), and a scrappy skirmisher. Yeah, people will argue “but it’s cost efficient”. Yeah, but without effective use of artillery, Russia’s KD/R is normally negative in treaty cause it’s just too easy to kill 500 Imperial Strelets instead of 500 Imperial Skirmishers.
I had to overcome this skirm disadvantage with superior artillery micro, but it was still very difficult because you didn’t have the Engineering School card at the time. I always had at least 3 artillery ranges behind me, with 1 horse cannon always in production, maybe another artillery range on a culverin, but when they took out my horse cannons, I bumped it up to 5 again and sent them out again. It took horrible extra APM to keep artillery production consistent.
Russia needed the Engineering Card to fight face-to-face effectively. You can’t count on 50 strelet to go on par with 50 skirmishers, and they can even lose to fully upgraded Musks because of their low HP and weak attack. You can’t even outnumber the enemy because they too have a 100 military pop, and good players keep that military pop maxed out at all times. So yeah, the Engineering Card is a sweet gift, having been nerfed Russia’s other strengths.
Plus, the ESOC team in 2016 who made the official treaty patch for AOE3 gave Russia the engineering school card too. Same conclusions
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