-Standard Poll -Regarding Nomad being an entirely separate game mode that should not be inside the standard starts random script map queue. Among other suggestions - Standard Poll -

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
81

The issue is - who draws the line of “standard” vs “non-standard”?

In ancient ages “standard” start means treaty until castle age (yes you get kicked if you drush your opponent in some lobby systems).

How about forest nothing? If they are standard, will we see them in queue, and more importantly, tournaments?

For black forest lovers Socorta is non standard. You think that everything without 1TC 3vill is non standard. Is there a better definition of standard in this case? For me “1TC 3vill” is merely a result, not a reason.

82

I believe that the argument would be what 90% or more random map scripts have in common between them - there are plenty of things that vary from map to map, but what is consistent between them?

Forest nothing is a bit of an extreme example I brought up, but if it came in with the standard start, I don’t believe I would complain if it were in the ranked queue.

83

I honestly dont know yet - thats why I didnt bring any counter suggestions, but I disagree with your standard as well.

My only vague definition is that if a map is played competitively without (or only a few) scripts, then it is standard map.

3 Likes
84

I believe that multiple game modes have their own starting standards, as well as their own ending standards - much like the standard of chess or ‘go’ and other such board games.

With variations of how you start the game, it would be labeled as either a handi cap or a different style of play. Or a different board game entirely even if it’s on the same exact board.

Take ‘go’ for instance, it can played on a 19x19 board - but other games can be played on that board, like tick tack toe 4-8 in row and so on - the possibilities are rather endless. Kind of like how we as a community like to create different scenarios and game modes off of the very versatile board given to us.

85

If by your reasoning, Arena and Arabia have different starting strategies as well, then they belong to different standard. (Not sure if that works but seems conflicting with what you mentioned)

1 Like
86

You’re not wrong, however I think it’s more like an expansion to the board game while keeping the core rules - it has the same rules, the same start, but like settlers of katan, there’s multiple new places to go to and different win conditions may apply - but the end condition is the same, you still need to get to 10 points(katan)

Certain civs do have an unfair advantage on such maps, (arena) and I believe that civ balance should be found and tested on all map types - if a certain map type kills that civ balance and the civ simply cannot be balanced without killing it on all other maps, then that map type should not be within the standard as far as the official ranked queue goes.

If arena is unable to be balanced around while keeping all other standard map types in mind, then it would have to go.

The same should apply to all maps added into the ranked pool.

Conversely, this should also apply to all existing civilizations and incoming civs.

87

Not sure, but there are way too many starting types if you define standard this way

  • Arabia
  • Socorta
  • Nomad
  • Arena
  • Water maps
  • Hybrid map…

In the end we will have to give up a lot of maps if we want to keep the number of queues small. Isnt that a great loss of variety for the sake of fairer ELO?

88

I believe that the civs as a whole as well as most maps are well and very finely balanced, and further balance changes will come.

Water maps or water balance can and most certainly will come to a point where balance there is improved.
I find that it can be refined further and they would do well to do so.

Currently, regardless of my feelings of water based maps, I believe they are at least in a playable condition by all civs. Some civs need to focus on early offense or mainly defense, be it on land or water, and all of that is well and fine. Changes will come as we find any issues to improve the balance on each type of map variation.

I believe most controversy as of late is in arena, and I think that is where balance should be focused on to find out if that type of map breaks the standard too far.

My current belief is that 90%+ of maps are currently within balance and are well and good for the standard - and that includes arabia and all its variants, 4 lakes, black forest, islands, coastal, socotra, and many hybrids

As for my own personal opinion on arena - I feel it is a civ problem, not a map problem. I hope that balance may be found there.

And perhaps it is both, perhaps some civs do not deserve stone walls if they don’t already have them.
However with that thought comes a whole new theory of balance to study.

Perhaps if one civ is kept from stone walls then maybe all in that instance should be kept from stone until they make it themselves.

@GermanAttorney8

As for nomad, I feel that it changes the starting condition of the initial pieces greatly enough that is a different board game, or a separate style of the same board game. It lacks initial pieces, and the style is different. It’s a little hard to say, but I feel it is different from the original standard board game, so to speak, and it creates its own standard or style to start from, and I believe many variations of the board can be built off of that style within its own new standard.

Similar to how empire wars would still be empire wars to me regardless of what age it starts in or even if it’s limited to a single age; Nomad would still be nomad, regardless of map variation, villager placement, starting/ending age and many other variables.

89

As for starting strategies being different, your actions starting from having the same basic pieces, or standard, if you will, will change based on the surrounding objects on the board - the endgoal may be the same, but how flexible you are based on the surroundings of the starting location matter. It’s not that it’s a different game mode, it’s simply that your options are increased or decreased while still retaining the starting standard that the game mode is built from and focusing on the endgoal that hasn’t changed.
Or something like that in any case.
Neither the starting pieces nor the endgoal is changed.
What you do between that is very much up to how flexible one is to varying factors.

Now how one defines what those starting pieces are and what the limits are of what may be added or taken away before it becomes an entirely different mode, that is most certainly up for debate.

90

can you finally accept that you’re in the minority with your opinion? it starts to be annoying to see you propagating your pov so often and wrongly stating its the majorities opinion. also it’s called ranked random match not ranked arabia and friends. your elo should represent your skill on different maps. everyone will be better on certain maps and weaker on others but dividing elo for each map and start type is just ridiculous.

5 Likes
91

I am well aware that map votes take until 1k votes before nomad drops like rock leading up to 1.4k votes.

I fully expect this poll to be the same way, given that most active forum users will be the ones voting early on just like with the map vote.

I’m giving it anywhere from 8 days to after the next map rotation for an accurate vote. Rather than the usual short 3 day map votes.

The early votes are the ones I’m trying to convince - the later votes on the other hand I’m counting on already having pre-set ideas similar to what I’m spouting.

So no.

Also, I’m for variable maps, lots of maps, maps a plenty. Open, closed, arena, arabia, socotra, 4 lakes, islands, hybrids - etc and many many more. Within the standard start random map script queue.

Nomad on the other hand is an entirely different game mode with very limited starting pieces when compared to the normal standard queue, and it deserves its own elo and either ranked lobby, queue or both.

You calling it ‘arabia and friends’ is just plain slander to the standard game mode.

@Tropfzahn

92

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe they just don’t like nomad but they do not necessarily agree with you?
I mean, I do not like nomad, but I don’t think it’s a separate mode

5 Likes
93

I believe the opposite is also true, there may be those who love nomad yet would also agree with me.

Possibilities are endless.

I mean, I personally like nomad, and I want to see it thrive in its own queue, ranked lobby or both.

94

Wow. Not this again. Nomad is part of the game, and has been for many years. It belongs to the same ranked system as much as any other map. Deal with it.

I am not going to read through all the posts, but if you need more evidence that just look at who made the Quarter Finals of Wandering Warriors Cup. It was the same guys who get to the QF of any big AOE tournament. Therefore saying that ELO of nomad does not match to ELO of other maps is just blatantly wrong. By your logic it would be completely different guys (nomad specialists) making it late stages of such a tournament.

If you have a personal issue with nomad then that is fine, but don’t extend this to an issue that the whole community is experiencing. The fact your poll is getting massively voted down should show how little support you have.

Most of the skills needed for nomad are the same as for any other map, but with added emphasis on dark age scouting, balance between land and water and adapting based on where enemy TC location is. Build orders go out of the window in a lot of the games, and that is what makes it so much fun to play. If you just want to play 20 pop scouts every game then keep playing Arabia.

8 Likes
95

It is not that simple - Mayan are (one of very ) best for Socorta, For hybrid maps Liths are T0, water maps are bounded to some civs with water bonus, Land madness - magyars. Arena is actually more balanced compared to these.

Using GO as example, for me, Arena is that everyone starts with a set of stone, water map is that there are holes in 19x19 board, land madness is that you are forbidden to play near your last 10 stones.

In my opinion, the difference between Arena and Arabia is as big as the difference between Nomad and Arabia. (In the sense that, good players in Areana does not always transfer to good players in Arabia and the reverse is also true. I think my Arena ELO is probably 1200 only and my Arabia elo is 1900)

96

I partly agree on the parts about standard 3 villager / 1 TC / no castle starts for Fortress and MegaRandom. I don’t care about having an animal scout though, as long as it’s just one scout.

But Nomad should be left alone. It’s one of the oldest ranked maps so everybody knows it. If you haven’t practised your Nomad start enough, then that’s your own issue that you need to work on. The Nomad start is a huge part of the map’s identity. Removing it would just turn it into a Scandinavia clone or basically Arabia with water. TC and dock placement is a big part of the decision making and luck factor which make Nomadic games so exciting.

And ‘nomad’ literally means someone who travels from place to place and doesn’t already have a permanent home. So starting with a TC defeats the point of calling it Nomad.

1 Like
97

I think the blanket statement that nomad ‘obviously’ does not belong into RM ranked queue is false. We currently have a mechanism to determine what maps go into the ranked pool, it’s called voting in the ranked map rotation polls. Nomad start maps keep getting elected so the majority of the (voting) player base disagrees with you. Hence it is not ‘obvious’.

Secondly I disagree with the argument that Elo doesnt match 1:1 for Nomad maps. While it is true that Elo for Nomad doesn’t match 1:1 with Elo for Arabia, the same is true for Arabia vs Arena, Arabia vs Islands, or any other map pair. In fact I think that Nomad starts by themselves dont change much, ie that there would be a strong correspondence between Elo for Nomad and a similar map like Baltic or any other open hybrid map with lots of resources. I also think that your average Arabia player is more at home on Nomad maps (in particular land nomad), then they are on something like Socotra or Arena.

Lastly African clearing (a map with Nomad start) is currently the 3rd most played (after Arabia and Arena) ahead of Gold rush

TL;DR: Nomad is popular, not too different from other maps in the ranked pool. Dont say it’s “obvious” it doesnt belong there. Sorry for rambling

4 Likes
99

I am not attempting to change the start on nomad maps, they are specifically made for nomad, these maps and any new nomad maps should be transferred to the nomad ranked lobby system or the nomad queue. Perhaps someday we’ll be able to select nomad on any map like regicide and death match, but until then nomad is stuck with simply maps made entirely for it.

The wandering warrior cup maps would also be great additions to such a queue, like @TheConqueror753 suggested.

@Simmo33k
I am well aware that map votes take until 1k votes before nomad drops like rock leading up to 1.4k votes.
The 3 short days of map voting was never enough for an accurate vote. Most active forum users are pro nomad being inside the standard queue.

I fully expect this poll to be the same way, given that most active forum users will be the ones voting early on just like with the map vote.

I’m giving it anywhere from 8 days to after the next map rotation for an accurate vote. Rather than the usual short 3 day map votes.

The early votes are the ones I’m trying to convince - the later votes on the other hand I’m counting on already having pre-set ideas similar to what I’m spouting.

So no.

Also, I’m for variable maps, lots of maps, maps a plenty. Open, closed, arena, arabia, socotra, 4 lakes, islands, hybrids - etc and many many more. Within the standard start random map script queue.

Build orders are training wheels;
You’re supposed to grow out of them.
Furthermore, sticking to just arena or just arabia is like keeping those training wheels on and never letting them go. Build your foundations, but grow beyond the crutch.

Nomad is a different style of the same game played on the same board that is different enough to be counted as a separate game mode because the foundation of the start and the lack of key starting pieces is so very different from the standard map scripts that 90-98%+ of standard random map scripts hold.

@TwerDefender

3 short days was never enough for an accurate vote.

Prior to 1k voters nomad wins often, however once we gain 1.4k voters nomad drops like a rock.

The forum users that are most active are voting the most early on and those same users are heavily in favor of nomad being inside the queue.

However the more votes, the more nomad falls short.
I expect the same for this vote.

Nomad is a popular mode, it is not being respected with its own queue ranked lobby elo. Instead it is confused for ‘just another map’ which is sad. It deserves much better.

As for the higher level players winning against people who focus on nomad, it does not surprise me, since I would expect that to happen in every single separate game mode.
At a certain point, elo does not matter or means very little. Once you know the mechanics of the basic game down to a well memorized tune, switching between game modes on the same board becomes very simple, especially when the basic mechanics are the same.

100

understandable, balance in this game and setting once we get down to basic parts is very complex at certain points. At some point, even tho the start and end goal are the same, the surroundings that one must adjust for can most certainly take a higher expertise on those factors even if one has mastered most other surroundings and are flexible with how they change one’s approach towards the end goal.

Balance changes will most certainly be had if they are needed either on a map basis or a civ basis.
I find it doubtful that balance will be unable to be found on any particular map and that permanent banning of maps from the standard would be incredibly rare if not non-existent, because civ balance may be finely tuned, and may become moreso with time to the point where map setting won’t matter as much so long as the standard is adhered to.

I look forward to more water bonuses and content,
As well as for more map variety.

Arabia and arena may be close to being called separate game modes, however I feel that would be a mistake.
I believe that arena would currently be looked at as a mutual handicap much like skipping part of the early game so both players may focus towards the midgame while still going through the game from the very starting standard that all standard random map scripts follow.

As for water maps specifically, you can win without ever leaving the island or after settling on a preferred area. Depending on the approach, one can make due with the bare minimal chance of victory even if map control is given to the enemy for the entirety of the game.
One might even use siege or monks to counter incoming naval masses. Every civ can and should have options regardless of map setting.

101

Arena is the same game mode as arabia, and arena is more like a mutual starting handicap for both players.
Basically it allows both players to focus on the mid game while still playing from the beginning of the game.

Nomad on the other hand has many missing starting pieces, enough to the point it’s considered an entirely different game mode standard.