You are the rare one who are not expressing the personal feeling and really can match up what I was talking. Thanks for information.
Honestly, I also consider Sweden is better than before but not means they are balance.
Just from OP tier S+++ dropped to OP tier S++.
They lost some eco but they also get buff in merces and early game.
He will not refund the game OR disappear from the forum.
He needs to come here daily and complain how Sweden can become weaker or perhaps even removed from the game (he’s said he would want).
You are so OP in real life also can assume somebody esle to do something you imagine.
Again, typically Sweden protectors are just able to show their feeling without points and evidence and made the game mess, ONLY.
For protector only have feeling Sweden are fine without and data and evidence:
Why don’t just say “I get used to Sweden is the most OP civ and I don’t want them to be nerfed.”
Thats the same meaning.
Now Sweden protector are even not listening top player’s opinion and started to put an excuse is top player don’t know how to play against Sweden. Sweden protector don’t care balance, ignore data and figure, keep expressing their own feeling and complain others person, mention aoe2 and Japan under Sweden topic, everything are beating themselves with truth.
From Kaiserklein opinion in ESOC forum
At the end of the day I just don’t see how you beat a civ with such a ridiculous resources income, when you can’t really siege their torps (cause extra HP and unit shipment potential), can’t really hunt down the torp vils (they can build them in trees and get a fine income, gl finding that), can’t really raid them because their few vils are in base, can’t really rush into a tower (and they get units out reasonably fast too, and have many unit shipments, including cannons…), etc. And on top of their eco, their military also scales very well. Meanwhile they can easily raid you because unlike them you need to spread on the map, and caroleans are insane at raiding.
So basically with the average, standard civ, I don’t think you can ever beat sweden. Even to have a somewhat close game, you have to outplay hard because making caroleans is so damn easy too. Can’t make a mistake but they can make plenty.
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=982&t=22439&sid=b8f5c17aa3f7cfb01213c04febae7dc7&start=125
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Maybe Swedish players will pay extra when buying games. This may be easier for everyone to accept.
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I wouldn’t use that game as an example to tell if Sweden is OP or not. For various obvious reasons. Sweden severely out-massed German, so’ obviously his army won. He had double cav cards in, plus like 20 cavalry in total or even more. Also, the ONLY thing Kaiser had to counter that was like 8 or 9 War Wagons, which is clearly not enough, considering he had 40+ caroleans behind them. Also, why the hell would Kaiser send Jaegers against a double stable army? Why the hell mass Uhlans agains 40 Caroleans. It just doesnt make sense. Plus he had very bad trades where his units got caught many times and lost free Uhlans. He was better off massing War Wagons, or a couple of dopps. Plus Skirms and sending Black Riders instead. That wouldve EASILY killed that army.
Pushing with such a little amount of units was a mistake, considering Swede stood in Age 2 for so long it was very obvious that he was massing units, so if you Aged up, wait in your base until you can have the big age 3 mass, with your cards, upgrades and better units. WITH THE CORRECT COMPOSITION AND MICRO. I’m no top1 player but even Kaiser admitted he made crucial mistakes that game, including Hazza Samwise, and many other pros watching the game Live on Twitch.
Other than that I think Sweden can get minor nerfs, like the initial food on torps. Torps should have 175 food like the original version, maybe 150-160 ish. 125 was way too low considering you had a very little time window to send blueberries. Blueberries are worse than they were in the previous iterations, considering that Blueberries gave you a whole NEW bush with about 500 food, that gathered at twice speed. Now the only have +200 from the CURRENT food in the bush, and also only 400 maximum considering the torps just built the second before bb got shipped. What is a little dumb but yet still undiscovered (so not a single idea how it feels in the top ratings) is the blackberries. Like, torps cam gather from
Both at the same time, and it gives you a huge eco spike. Note that this is an EXTREMELY greedy build. But if you are uncontested amd you pull it off, is very strong. However it’s effects don’t last long since Blueberries expire WAY sooner than before, so’ you have to transition to mills before than you normally would. I’ve spammed them over the last week to try to come up with a strategy to both play them and counter them, and it seems like you can just spread them over the map, with better units, disrupting their economy. And only commit to an age3 timing if you KNOW that he is not massing cav, otherwise you NEED a bunch of pikes or dragoons to defend your artillery or your units in general. Caroleans don’t counter basically anything at the moment since cav can just close the gap and they no longer will have the cav multiplier bonus, like normal musketeers do. Pikes and Crossbows get completely outclassed age3 and up, and mercenaries, especially jaegers are impossible to mass, compared to skirms, so you basically have a weak anti infantry setup. Also, you have no anti cav other than pikes and caroleans, but Caroleans only counter cav on big numbers cuz again, on melee they are equally matched. Also, with the age4 card that chances the melee resist to ranged resist, it literally makes them vulnerable to cav, since no resistance and also no multipliers while in melee. So Sweden can be severly punished lategame with cav/dragoon masses since they have no ways to counter it other than making cav them selves, which is stupid because dragoons will destroy them. So’ it would force them to keep building jaegers which is not viable as a mass or crossbows which are outclassed age3 by any skirmishers. So’ they can certainly be countered. I don’t see how Sweden is unbeatable with the appropriate adjustments (which is clearly underway). A well balanced army of mass crossbows, and pikes will beat carolean huss combo anyday, and if Leather cannon pops out, its not like you cant build cav yourself. So’ it’s playable, they may need a minor adjustment, but not a removal, or a rework. Japan has better units, with the same eco as torps, but they are unlimited. Every resource gathered will always be comparable against Brits, Ports, Dutch and Japan. So’ you’re not over gathering. And all their bonuses are permanent. Shrines, +20 manor vills, multiple TCs plus food income, banks. Those are all permanent, not torps.
But they could use some work. Mercenaries lategame suck btw. You cant mass them cuz of their price, also their population space. Just saying. Anyways, I don’t even main sweden so my comment is not biased on my personal preferences. I play Spain amd Brits. I’m picking up Swedes to learn how they work. I’m still open for any arguments, or discussion.
Swedes are just still undiscovered at the moment, since they’ve gotten so many changes over the last patch. We just have to sit and learn how to counter the current Sweden, since I expect that the next changes would be small number changes to make them balanced. But yet again, people are learning to macro/build with them, and against them. So’ now it’s not the time to judge how OP or not it is, just to learn to do so meanwhile future nerfs/buffs/changes come.
That game is an good example enough, it tells several point (as Kaiser opinion):
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German didn’t receive any pressure under Sweden during the game.
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German beginning of age3, which is the strongest timing of German, can’t beat Sweden well.
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With high HP torps, this is extremely difficult to siege their torps and even they may send variety shipment next to you suddenly. The torps also provided ridiculous eco for them to mass the army, as we see Sweden have much more army.
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In that game, everyone is pointing at Kaiser made some mistakes, this is main point from him, you are not allowed to make mistake when facing Sweden but they can make plenty.
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From your opinion to age3 and age4 carolean that facing cav is weaker. There is one point, In age3 and age4 the carolean is massive, it isn’t 10 or 20 caroleans facing 10 cav or 20 cav like that, you will not use cav to melee massive caroleans is possible, because before your cav can melee carolean, they have the highest attack vs cav will deal some loss to cav already, and they still can concentrate aim on cav with micro which cav can’t. Not to mention Sweden has the strongest eco than others.
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Leather cannon for age2 defense is super strong. with carolean how many cav/inf you need for sieging their wall? Top players has complaint this one. With safer turtle at home and only few vils build torps outside, Sweden has the strongest eco and you still need to spread your units to find the torps and vils.
The format is quite difficult for me to read with a long paragraph.
See if you can separate a little bit for several points for better reading. Thanks.
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Sweden will can compensate for its shortcomings with Jaeger cards. I can’t expect that Sweden, who built all the Torps, will have no coins at all to receive the card.
Hussar is needed to remove the leather cannon, but Hussar is weak against Carolean. Also, they have Pikeman cards, so sweden is not difficult to face the cavalry. It’s even more stupid to bring Xbow to play against Carolean. The leather cannon has twice the modifier for infantry. Carolean now has a range of 12, so Xbow has a hard time taking control of attracting Carolean.
Either way, if Sweden proceeds the 3ages, we’ll have to again suffer from the terrible Carolean Falconet spam nightmare.
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It’s hard to know what you mean, since most western countries recruited and complemented their armies with mercenaries at that time, but if you’re somehow implying that Sweden had to, or even could rely on [foreign] mercenaries, you’re mistaken; Sweden back then was too poor to recruit mercenaries in any larger scale (unlike the economic powerhouses, like Britain and France) — the one example of a Swedish “mercenary army” would be in the Thirty Years’ War, but you have to understand that this army was dependent on French subsidies… Sweden almost always strove to recruit less mercenaries and instead rely on standing armies — perhaps even more so than most other western nations. If this Sweden, basically being a mercenary civilisation, is what the devs intended, they either 1. have not done their research, or 2. are just too lazy to make a functional civ based on its historic counterpart.
Also, what’s up with the Carolean “charge-ability”? Is it just me or is it used more for the sake of retreating than it is for charging (imo, it seems quite weak as it is now)?
Well after looking on how absurd are some tech of the new civs of aoe2 (Yes, I’m talking to the First Crusade), and then you can understand how hard is balance a civ like Swedes.
The card can activate the mercenary. It can activate the mercenary in the upgrade era, and the game starts to activate the mercenary for free. If the player is still unwilling to use the mercenary, maybe soon the developer will force the mercenary to be distributed on each card
There are no factories in Japan, so this comparison is inappropriate.
The so called sweden nerf lasted like 2 weeks. No where near long enough to get a good response. It was bs it changed so quick.
Obviously Sweden has received a big nerf, but has received numerous bonuses to make up for that nerf. But in just two weeks, the developers brought Sweden back to normal, leaving the bonus intact, and even made it possible to train Xbow for their weak timing.
It is clear that they are not directly controlling the game and balancing based on that experience, but rather by the forum’s public opinion.
Sweden has Xbows now so they don’t really need the strong Leather Cannons in Age 2.
I think they should be moved the Age 3 and replace the Falconets like the Portuguese Organ Guns. They have slightly lower DPM against Infantry but are practically cheaper because they cost wood instead of coin. Maybe an 4x anti Infantry multiplier
I’d also make the 2 Leather Cannons card a bit weaker. One idea would be make it cost a bit of food the other would be change it into a counter Infantry card with 1 Leather Cannon and 2-4 xbows.
They could get a good Leather Cannon card in Age 3 to compensate for that change.
Maybe 2 Leather Cannons and the +1x against Infantry (if the base stays 3x) is an decent replacement for not heaving Falconets.
Maybe the best solution for Sweden is to make them a bit more “boring” as in Removing some of their strange strengths but also removing some of their unusual weaknesses.
Give them Skirmishers but make Torps weaker. (No mining bonus card)
Skirmishers would fit well into a Swedish army.
I also thing guard Pikes (Swedish and Spanish) need some love and change the wood cost into gold.
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Tbh just nerf blueberries a bit (like 150 instead of 200 food bonus) and the age 4 carolean card and u have a balanced civ. Alternative would be making torps cost more and dont touch bb.
The way to balance sweden easily is to make torps weaker. They have WAY too much health. Its like having a super villager that can keep harvesting even under attack. Make them stop unless half health or something. The torp system makes them broken because you cannot stunt their econ early. It’s impossible because no one can get buildings down quick enough early yet they can murder every one of your villagers in 10 seconds.
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LC more like abus guns, not falcs (unlike organ guns). They have a lot less range and resists, and low dmg against everything but infantry. They can rework LCs to make them falc replacement, but it sounds like an unnecessary change that makes things even worse.