There tons of ways of tweaking them. Dutch is far from being unbalanced (they are strong but I don’t see crazy tweaks to put them in line). There are far more important civs to be worthy a patch than Netherlands.
E.g: Fan patch gave them 2 reasonable and good nerfs that were not in DE:
They could also do several things to tone them down a bit like:
- remove the +1 free bank limit given by D.E. (no one uses Roterdam and Amsterdam because of that). Give back the +5% coin gather rate previously removed.
- move Dutch East India Company to Discovery Age if all/most of those nerfs go through (no one ever uses this card as long as they have 700 wood and bank wagon cards as priorities)
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imo the only nerf dutch needs is -1 coin crate start and they’ll be back to normal. they’re hardly overpowered and have extremely limited unit compositions, a narrow range of builds that all do more or less the same thing, and a very poor composition in age 2, means as an opponent you can essentially always ff or fi
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These nerfs to initial crate barely balance the game to the core. it only slows down some civs a bit so the opponents can have a time to catch them and leads to fixed openings (12/10) and strategies (eg: FF).
It works sometimes but then the issues of mid and late game remain. One crate nerf will only hide dirt under the carpet.
It kind of proves my point. And they have skirmishes.
That’s not going to work against any component dutch. They will be in age3 by the time you get age4 and they will outmacro your mortar all-in.
Look, I am not saying they are OP and in need of a nerf, but they are not as weak as you make them out to be.
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And if they nerf their boom, and they give them military shipments like halbs / skirms / swiss pikes / natives so they also have an interesting age 2 and viable rush opening.
Change 700 wood for 600 infinite because they have almost no slots available at age 2, and some other shipment at age 1 or age 3.
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I’m afraid I have to disagree from my experiences. every dutch player I have ever faced has not been able to withstand a clean fast industrial. big military shipment spikes and long range artillery (heavy cannon and mortars) cripple dutch’s eco and their low hp military units do not like heavy cannon. if they train culvs they have to cut ruyt production so if you see a foundry you do a cav switch.
removing a crate would do a lot more than change their ageup time. it delays the second and third banks, which slows their shipment progression. this has repurcussions for at least the first 15 minutes
the civ is nearly identical in 1v1 to what it was 15 years ago, if you’re seriously convinced that dutch is op, i really think you’re just unfamiliar with the matchup or what dutch is weak to
if you can find a dutch player that can hold a well executed india fast industrial, let me know, id love to see that
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Only a few civs need adjustment. Most of what people think is op is just the matchups. Some civs just have trouble competing w others as they have a strength that complements the others weakness. Dutch is about right. They can be strong but have definite weaknesses.
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There is nothing OP with Dutch. It’s peak is during Fortress Age and early Industrial. After this, the civ will struggle.
Just deal with it and learn how to counter them.
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As i said, i don’t think any change are necessary for the moment. Dutch is almost perfectly balanced.
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Everything you said is 100% on point aside from… Imp Pikemen… they need to increase population cost for them… you can spam 100 of them mid to late game and they are undefeatable by any unit. I know a player that will spam them everytime and win no matter the situation… you are 100% correct though. Everything you suggested is reasonable. These people against you clearly use the dutch and don’t want the changes
Bro thank you… you are being 100% unbiased. I agree they are static and could afford more offensive options but at the same time the eco NEEDS to be nerfed. in addition to an increase in the pop cost to the pikemen and ryters. they are far too spamable with all 6 of the OP banks + factories are going full steam. thank you for being honest
well put. its impossible to beat an opponent that doesn’t have to defend the equivalent of 20 villagers who never stop collecting resources or have to move. The trickle rate should be reduced and or the banks HP reduced so they can be destroyed
… spammed pikemen. yeah i don’t think thats ever been an issue for any civ. Try doppels or urumi if you wanna see pikes vanish
Μaybe he refers halberdiers, dutch ones are specially strong with canons, but not an issue
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i think he has to mean halbs. i really hope it means halbs. not a unit that needs a nerf but that’s a lot better than pikes
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You are joking, i can tell.
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What you think about this? Would it affect the balance too much?
Banks: 4000 hp to 3500 hp
Shipments:
Age I
- Add Orient Dutch Company (age II) + 75 wood
Age II
-
Remove 700 and 600 wood, add 600 wood infinite.
-
3 halbs + 2 skirms (590 res)
-
4 halbs + 200 wood (680 res)
-
5 swiss pikes 300c (500 res)
Age III
- Grenade launcher + 4 grenadiers together
Age IV
-
Remove or buff all military shipments over 1560/1600 res, are useless: 10/11 halbs, 9 skirms, 7 hussars, 11/13 ruyters, 7 grens …
-
Dutch counter cavalry 10 halbs + 4 ruyters (1620 res) to 10 halbs + 6 ruyters (1830 res) This sounds like a “special” shipment
Holland is a turtle / boom civilization, but it is also the European civilization of the halbs and skirms in age II.
Their use could be further promoted, more aggressive options for the rush, they have a great shortage of good/variety shipments.
Holland is a civ with a peak of power in the era of fortresses and early industrial, I don’t think these changes will affect this too much, and that the ff will continue to be predominant. Or maybe these posts make it OP being able to afford to go to ff and defend too easily …
Halbs… you are clearly a dutch player… which is why you care so much about this conversation… the dutch halb fully upgraded is the best unit in the game yet the population points show it to be worth 1. Meanwhile, mercenary units that are comparable like the Swiss Pike are worth 2 or 3 population points… so when you spam dutch halbs you have an army of swiss pike and the game is over around the 30 min mark.
What I love about dutch players like you is you always think they are balanced. You clearly have a bias and don’t care about using other civs. Im a level 106 otto player, level 126 African player, level 120 swede player, level 45 Indian player, level 25-sih brittish, Chinese, dutch, lvl 30 amercian, french player… Ive played 1k games… Id love for you to tell me your dutch level… the dutch need a nerf…
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Nah, I think your changes are too sweeping. All I want to see- as a guy who thinks dutch are op- are 2 things… Reduce the trickle rate of the banks… 3.26 is too high make it 2.26… AND make the banks worth
3000Hp…
Im tired of banks that act like a fortress when it comes to defense… that’s not fair and it ruins the game. **
I want to be able to destroy a bank if it’s placed defensively in front of the dutch base it makes no sense that these buildings are indestructible all game… PLEASE CORRECT THIS
**
ive played 3 dutch games on de, probably best to get over yourself if you can’t beat dutch, and especially halberdiers lol
this may shock you to find out after 15 years of this game, but uh, mercenaries are supposed to take up more population than standard units