Thank you MasterSncKnight, I really enjoy all your posts (not just yours, a big “ILOVETHISCOMMUNITY” to everybody trying to improve the system and not giving up on solutions).
Just one clarification: I am not arguing for lobbies only as the main solution, but I’d prefer it over the current system any day of the week. I really think that this solution of grouping similar maps together (don’t have to be all of them, a rotation of those maps could also be viable) and providing enough bans within these should be Solution 1. The issue stays that most players, especially the ones having played similar/the same map for a long time, will just not play other maps. It is, what it is. And now, the devs can either continue to force certain maps, resulting in either Alt+F4 or switching back to Voobly/HD for many (not all), or try to introduce a system with enough possibilities to choose. After all, and this is hopefully the point we can all start with,
DE IS SUPPOSED TO UNITE THE COMMUNITY, NOT SPLIT IT UP MORE.
And I really dont like the argument of “either be happy with it or stop playing”, because thats just not how people are (at least the first part of the sentence).
Again, I Daut you all for this discussion
Nevertheless, I do not get why officials still have not explained this map pool system. What was the reasoning for it? We all have hypothesis, but it cannot be wanted for us to be left in the dark, or is it?
Oh wait u’re right, I quickly checked in the editor and the landscape was showing any kind of map from the game, but I didn’t check the players themselves, and yeah they get some random stuff (mostly for their buildings), sometimes they get a blacksmith, sometimes a monastery, an archery range, a castle, one time it didn’t even start with a TC but the place was surrounded by some bombard towers. Still, both players would get the exact same stuff all the times.
That’s the issue tho, they either make a map pool that’ll select the map for us and force us to play what we don’t want or we have a different ladder for each style of map (“style” so there are more than one map in the same style) so the player has the freedom to choose what they want. Tbh voobly had done it right, idk why they didn’t consider checking how it was being done there to make a system similar.
It’s simple, they asked what maps people wanted to play, not how the system should work.
you are keep accusing others of not knowing what they are talking about, are you sure you know what you’re talking about?
people like you were saying the same things about the last map pool too when we were talking about how boring and ridiculous highlands - rivers - continental and mongolia are. but they did actually remove those maps.
you are talking about all the maps in the map pool being competitive, did you ever see BF or mega random being played in a serious tournament in the past 4 years?
with all these things said, yes we still need BF in the map pool because there are some hardcore BF team game players. but it should not be included in 1vs1s. why should i waste one of my bans on a map that is not meant for 1vs1s? it should be an auto ban for every 1vs1s
ok so based on what you just said, what justifies a competitive map is to have fair generations, right? THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN MEGA RANDOM BEING IN THE MAP POOL??? you will never know what is going to generate, we’ve seen it many times in the past that one player has access to fish, the other doesnt, one player has a cross to the middle island, one player doesnt
im not saying what you are saying is wrong, im saying what you are saying is not the case right now. above was the first reason, the second reason is, there is TON of other maps that have fair generation and better gameplay which are being constantly played in tournaments and they are not that hard to play on for lower level players. for example cross, acropolis, land madness and many others
maybe now you say oh then ban mega random and BF. why should i waste 2 of my bans on 2 maps that are not meant to be played competitively, atleast in 1vs1s. not to say you only get one ban in 2vs2 and 3vs3, and zero ban in 4vs4
the logic behind banning maps is to eliminate the maps that you are not strategically prepared or comfortable to play. as you said there is a variety skill set for the maps. we have nomad type maps, we have water type, we have closed map, and open maps. so wasting 2 of my bans on two WRONG maps is frustrating
and just to throw it out there, when the devs come up with a map pool, it doesnt make that map pool a HOLY COMPETITIVE SUPER SERIOUS map pool, you know? it can still be an awful map pool like previous one. so you dont have to defend their map pool. you can atleast agree some of the maps in the map pool are poorly thought through
why not just do as CS does… put more maps in the pool and let everyone ban as many as they want.
If you inflate your ELO on 1 map and get destroyed when you switch to another map, then your own fault. Your ELO will suffer.
If you want to ban 19 out of 20 maps, you are free to do so, but is your own fault that you will have to wait for 20 min to get a match.
just give the people the freedom they need. I really dont understand why is the match making so limited and limiting
Nice way to try to distort what I meant
I was talking about the 4 main maps, aka arabia, arena, nomad and bf (yes, bf, even if it’s not good for 1v1 it’s still good for team games and no matter what it’s one of the most played maps together with the others)
Mega random is a joke, no doubts abt it.
Gold rush plays similar to arabia.
Island is as standard of a water map as u can get.
Steppe is just nomad but with less water.
Also I never said no other map at all should be added, I literally gave examples of other maps that have similar styles that could be randomly choosen between each other.
Also if there’s something I believe everyone in here agrees is: the main problem isn’t the map pool itself, it’s how the map pool system is working to begin with.
because we dont have csgo’s playerbase. thats the main reason they are trying to not divide the queue
when you dont have enough players and you keep dividing the queue by letting players ban as much maps as they want, there is a big risk of system not being able to find any match for players, or finding unfair matches
It really does suck. Im not necessarily against any of the maps added, but i am very much against not being able to play ranked on any of the other maps. I was really enjoying how random it was. This got boring in one day.
I don’t think you need an extremely high player base for a system like csgo to work.
Of course it will be hard to find games if you ban 18/20 maps - but then it’s up to the players to find that out and adjust. I don’t see why having a large map pool and a lot of bans would be bad. Just match up people as long as there is at least one map that both have not banned and it will be fine.
The system right now makes sure the player base wont grow^^
Honestly after some thinking and playing I don’t think it’s that bad though. In the end you just need to focus on 5 maps (for 1v1 that is…) and if there’s 1-2 you still don’t like just pick one civ and an all in strategy and always play that until you’re able to pull it off on a good level - doing that I’m pretty confident that you might even start enjoying that map.
I’m just afraid that it’s too much of a barrier for newer players and that would be really bad…
I like the maps, even megarandom I find enjoyable.
IMO the maps promote a wide range of playstyles both in 1v1 and TeamGame, which I appreciate, eventhough I am most at home on arabia.
The ban-system is a good idea but I havent really been able to use it to my advantage, since I like to play 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. With all 3 checkboxes ticked I can not do a single ban.
you forgot one factor which is the whole purpose of matchmaking, matching players who are at the same level ( or close )
yes if we dont want to get balanced games its easy to find games as long as 2 players are picking one map, but the important part is to match the players based on their skill level ( elo ). thats where dividing the queue gets tricky when player base is low
And I also said you can choose to quit.
That’s what I am doing now.
I don’t like to waste time to post repeated complaints. If this devs insist on ruining this game, so be it. I would rather to wait and see if Warcraft III will bring some population back next month.
Really appreciating the fun this game has brought to me in the first month.
We definitly need different maps for 1v1 and TG pool, maybe even map pools for 1v1, 2v2, and one for 3v3/4v4. Even people who really like Nomad and Black Forest will tell you that these maps are TG maps. And ironically getting Nomad or BF in a 3v3 or 4v4 setting has the lowest chances because you cant ban.
ALL those who cry about the maps probably cannot play on water, … Hah , it is just a theory , hard to claim why exactly people cry about the map pool… Since when you play on a map the enemy is also on this map - I do not see a problem.
How did I think of it - well, very simple, cause they were crying about rivers / continental / highlands and those hasve one thing in common - those are maps with water and fishing.
Nomad is also a map with water.
ALL those who cry about the maps probably cannot play on water, … Hah , it is just a theory , hard to claim why exactly people cry about the map pool… Since when you play on a map the enemy is also on this map - I do not see a problem.
How did I think of it - well, very simple, cause they were crying about rivers / continental / highlands and those hasve one thing in common - those are maps with water and fishing.
Nomad is also a map with water.
Pleb comment coming from someone who never played AoE2 competively
Yes, most people suck anyway. I think the biggest problem is people being in a ranked mode where they feel like “it matters” and at the same time they don’t know what to do, which is increased by a lot through the new map pool.
I think if people just accepted that they will make mistakes and will lose games for stupid reasons it would be a lot easier…it’s just easier said than done…talking about myself here as well^^
Nah, I didnt forget that. Basically the only situation in which the change of ban systems would matter is when there is not a single map that is banned by neither of the players - do you really think that would happen that often? Because as long as there is just one map both have enabled, they can just play that map and everything is fine. So I dont think matchmaking would suffer more from low player numbers than it does right now…and people would be happier because they get to play what they want and therefore probably play more.
I think a lot of it is actually about water…but I think it’s a lot more about preference rather than ability. I just think water maps are much more boring than land maps (except for hybrid maps like cross, where you dont NEED water). Dark Age transports made that a bit better, but I still just prefer land maps by a lot…and I think most people do.
It’s honestly not that hard to learn water - I never played water maps before DE. It took me 30-60 minutes to to be able to somewhat know what to do and be competitive against people on an equal skill level. I don’t think it’s hard to learn, it’s just not as interesting as land maps for me.
I think Nomad is more about the unusual start. I think I’d even like the map, if it had a normal start - will probably have a look at it once I learned Arena and Steppe.
