Most of community players play Nomad, Arena, BF and Arabia so all those maps should be in the map pool IMO. Steppe on the other hand could be removed as far as I’m concerned and put in something else like Baltic, Coastal, etc. I personally hate Arabia and prefer playing Arena and BF so I like the map pool now. You have a Veto system so you can remove those maps if you like. The change is good from the last map pool.
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- I’m not lying, u can literally check by urself. 2) No, I won’t. AoE2 is an RTS game and it’s now trying to use the same ranked system other RTS games use, if those things were never an issue in other games I don’t see why a system like this couldn’t work in AoE2 after some adjustment. 3) I’m not saying there’s only one way, I’m saying that the reason most games use this kind of system is because it’s the one that works the best, it’s pretty much the same as metas.
This shouldn’t affect at all if u’re going to pick a civ or not.
In fact, I’d much rather be able to choose a civ after I see which map I’m going to play so I can adjust accordingly.
Do you even know how to read? I literally wrote “if they have a strong civ”. IF they play much better with a civ than others THEN they’d always choose their strong civ, if they don’t need a specific civ to play well then they can just go random or pick anything they feel like it, no matter what they’ll be playing with their best. Also, if someone’s hypocrite here it’s you, constantly saying how “everyone should be free to choose what they want” but there u are trying to make fun of someone because they might pick civs. Also ik rly well why people might wanna play random.
Yes. When I play a game I wanna win/lose because I played better than my opponent/my opponent played better than me, not because the map said “f*ck you” to one of us. Even the most balanced maps sometimes end up giving a rly good map to one player and a bad map for anoter, but those are still salvageable, but other maps end up giving even more advantage/disadvantage to one of the players.
Here’s a good example of something I saw in another post
At first I also thought to myself that other maps could be viable for ranked, but after seeing this now ik why most of the others aren’t.
They’re both RTS and I’m comparing ranked systems, which can all be similar to one another even if the games themselves play much differently. And even if SC2 has fixed maps they’re still choosen in the same way, the players can ban 3 maps and then the other ones are choosen at random. The main difference between AoE2 and SC2 is that AoE2 won’t need to refresh the map pool every season, since the maps are generated randomly, while in SC2 the map pool changes every so often so that people don’t get bored of playing the exact same maps all the time (that and they keep creating new tools for mapmaking, recently they added areas that slow characters when inside it, and some of the ladder maps have that now)
Ever heard of Fatslob? If maps are allowed to be choosen then he could potentially have an elo MUCH higher than viper himself, simply because he’s close to unbeatable when playing in the setup he always plays. Do u think it’s fair for players who play different to have a lower elo than someone who only plays a single map? Also this is not an “extreme hypothetical situation”, this is something that’s much closer to reality than you can think. I’m not saying people aren’t allowed to be good in something specific, I’m saying it’s unfair to call them better than pros just because of that. Blue Coffee is another one, so good at FFA diplo games to the point he even beat MBL himself.
Well yeah this is the one thing I think would not only please most, it would also be much more accurate with what each player is good at, and I feel like it’s better to have different elos so I could be gold in arabia but bronze in nomab for example, it’d reflect each player skill properly instead of just showing the average between all maps (which I admit is an issue, one could obliterate the other in BF but lose badly to the same player in arena, this is the kind of thing that could happen when there’s only 1 elo).
I feel like it depends more on the players than in the system itself. I feel like there are more maps out there that probably have competitive balance, but they just aren’t played enough for people to consider to play them competitively (like oasis, coastal, mediterranean, altho I can’t say for sure if they have generation issues). If those maps were to be added then players would need to actually play then often enough so they get noticed.
Aka unranked matchmaking with much more freedom of choice. Not a bad idea at all.
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I have nothing against Steppe tbh, it seems like nomad but without water.
Tho I also have nothing against adding Baltic and Coastal.
I don’t think there should be 3 maps with water in the map pool … as lots of players like playing only 1v1 land maps. Currently there’s 3 if you include megarandom … and that’s perfect.
Steppe isn’t one of the most popular maps but it’s definitely a competitive map and a great map.
If it does get replaced then I think it should be replaced with another popular land map. I think it’s perfect having 3 bans and 3 maps that can have water (megarandom can often have water) … as there are, indeed, lots of players who like playing lots of ranked 1v1s but don’t like water maps.
And when there are 8 maps … that means that about a 3rd of the maps have water … (since megarandom has water about half the time but 3/8 is more than a 3rd) … which is about the right fraction considering that land maps are more popular, I reckon.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind replacing Steppe with Regicide Fortess. But I guess that is bad for people who hate both Arena and Regicide Fortress because then they’d have two of those style maps in their pool.
Land Madness would be another good map to replace it with. That map is very fun and was also very entertaining in Nili’s NAC tournaments. (If it’s used it would be good to use the upcoming NAC3 version that will contain less berries to prevent Franks being overly dominant on the map).
But this is if it gets replaced. I think Steppe is actually a great map.
Rather than adding Costal or Baltic … I wouldn’t mind replacing Team Islands with Baltic. Balic is a great water map.
And I think coastal is a bad map competively. It’s not as bad as Highland but it has similar issues on some generations.
I’m just quite fed up of Steppe and Nomad being in the matchmaking and Black Forest being 1v1. These aren’t competitive maps for those. Steppe is fine normally, but sometimes one player has to walk forever to a resource and same with nomad. Please fix the ban system so that they can be done after matches are determined or make a new ranked system in regular lobbies for people who want to play these other maps.
Why on earth is that such a huge deal. Just ban those whenever you wanted a ranked match.
Some topics are quite strange considering the likes…
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Because you cant ban and queue for all types of matches. Frankly, most of us want to get into a match quickly and have fun. While I don’t have a problem with any of the maps in a 3v3 or 4v4, in a 1v1 or 2v2 the starts matter a whole lot more. And on nomad and steppe, the whole ■■■■ game can be decided by a crappy start.
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New map pool is OK. Consider ranked should include all types of map.
I am very happy for adding MegaRandom which is best for ranked since you dont know which map to expect and need to adapt 
Maybe Black Forest is weird map for ranked, but otherwise the pool is ok.
In my opinion it should be expanded to 12 - 15 maps with more bans available and then everyone would be happy.
The pool can be changing for example each month. But MegaRandom should stay there as it best examine your skill
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Well, you are free to leave, no one’s gonna stop you.
The topic was never an opinion sharing one anyways.
I can’t complain about the new maps.
But i certainly can complain about the lack of maps from the last map poll.
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because there are not enough bans available for this terrible map pool. 2 nomad maps really!?! BF, arena, mega random. 5 maps i want to ban, because they all suck.
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Can we agree on the fact that if they let you ban lots of maps, you will find a hard time finding matches?
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can we agree on the fact that we should not be in this situation at all. It is very easy to mitigate, yet it is not being done.
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I still am critical of the pool System and I think what Zack (Zero Empires) said about the matchmaking would be a better idea. But yet you can’t be just toxic on it.
yesterday i played a 2v2 on mega random, we all had 2 HUGE golds near to our TC, except for my enemy who had 0 gold near his base, he had to walk to the middle of the map to find a gold
how can people like you consider mega random as a good competitive map? have you ever seen mega random in any high level tournament? ( pls dont tell me Gbeto cup xD ) there is a reason why a map never shows itself in competitive scene, because simply its not made for serious games. having 100% random elements is not a good thing, and in MANY cases the map can be completely unfair, as i mentioned before, my enemy had 0 gold while we all had 2 pack of golds. also i saw it in the past sometimes one player doesnt have access to the middle island which contains lots of resources, while the other player has a small path to the middle islands. and sometimes a player has access to lots of fish while the other player doesnt. and above all of that, you have NO WAY of preparing strategies for the map you are playing on because you have never seen it before
even pro players and casters are saying mega random is not good for competitive ranked games ( for the reasons i mentioned )
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No, add more maps or a better banning system. I’m seriously sick of this new map pool already. My rating has plummeted because of bad maps on nomad and steppe and then when I get into a balanced map the game isn’t balanced and I absolutely destroy my opponent. This needs to be fixed ASAP.
This will be my final reply to you.
It seems like you have a very hard time understanding the simple reasoning behind my suggestions. Freedom of choice, like it has always been in aoe2. I consider this limitation of freedom not in proportion to the potential improvement in elo.
Your arguments are filled with logical fallacy’s eg; if something works elsewhere, it also must work here. You don’t even acknowledge that SC2 lends itself far more for map pools than AOE2. If a map in aoe2 was generated identically each time, sure playing many maps would be more popular in aoe2. And your argument literally went like “But they are both rts, and both have a MM system”
Also you claim that every game has a map pool… Even if it would be true, this doesn’t mean its the best option for AOE2. Logical fallacy. You talk with big confidence and certainty about things that don’t have to go one way.
Your ego is so big that you even proudly admit that you want to avoid others from playing maps in the ranked lobby that you don’t consider competitive enough. Your arguments are way out of line.
I call you out on bringing forth extreme situations, and then you bring up fatslob… lol. And think about it, because of people like you he won’t be able to play how he loves to enjoy the game. Are you proud about that? Some old guy out there that just wants to play for fun. I wonder what fatslob would think about your forced map pool. And you are worried about people boosting elo higher than their level… in reality it’s the other way around.
Also you don’t seem to understand the concept of when everyone can pick their desired map, the arabia players will play eachother, the nomad players will play eachother… They will form their own niches. Thus their elo will actually be more accurate for their playstyle.
For some reason you said that you think some players play better random than picking their best civ? Does stuff like that actually make sense in your head?
Again you display your confusion, you think (or you think that others think??) that elo is a direct sign of skill instead of a tool to assist fair matches. No one is calling MBL better than Viper overall because his elo is higher on voobly. You really enjoy bringing up these stereotypical false issues to get your point across.
Then your argument about bluecoffee taking out mbl (in a regicide 8p FFA by the way…). This actually conflicts with your argument, since that would mean he IS justified in his “falsely high” elo? Yeah I don’t see the logic either lol.
Let’s agree to disagree.
I’m sorry but you’re the one not understanding what I’m trying to say, and it seems to be mostly because you don’t understand what ranked is supposed to be.
First of all, yes AoE2 has always been about freedom of choice, but AoE2 never had a proper ranked system. Giving people too much freedom will and does result in people abusing the system and inflating their elo.
Here’s a video explaining more about what elo is for, how it works and how people end up abusing it to get more elo than they should (that in a lobby system that gives people too much choice).
The issue is that you don’t understand what I’m trying to say. This MM system is meant to calculate the accurate elo of the player through all different maps at once. So if we look at what the system is meant to do it works, I won’t back down from it. It was made to calculate the accurate elo and it does that, works as well as it works in other games like SC2.
BUT it doesn’t mean it’s a good system for AoE2 players in general.
It’s exactly why I said this in the first place.
I’m not saying that the current system is what will solve all the problem, I’m saying that it does what it was made to do and we can’t deny that. What i’m also saying is that to solve the actual problem and give people the choice to choose the maps they want we need a different system, not change the one we already have.
Maybe because I want player’s elo to be calculate based on their skill rather than just map generation? How would you feel if you lose a match because the map locked you out of ur own resources? Or if the map for some reason gave ur opponent more resources than it should, or gave him a much better defensive position while you’re all out in the open? If you want maps to be completely unfair right from the get go then you don’t even understand the concept of ranked. Also not only I don’t have ego, why wanting games to be fair would be considered having ego?
No? I never said he shouldn’t be allowed to play, I said that people like him have no place in a MM system like this one, this is why I want a DIFFERENT system in the game so people like him have a place to play properly. What you all have been asking is to change this one to allow players to choose the map they want while having elo calculated all in the same general way. What I’ve been asking is to have a different system where people can choose the map they want and have their elos calculated specificaly for the maps they want to play.
That’s pretty much what I’m trying to explain, having people playing what they want and having an elo that accurately reflects their playstyle is what I want, what I’m saying is that this doesn’t work with the current system. This kind of thing just can’t be done when you only have a single elo to rate players.
At this point you’re just proving you don’t know how to read.
Again
“IF THEY DON’T NEED A SPECIFIC CIV TO PLAY WELL then they can just go random or pick anything they feel like it”
Also you’re literally saying that people play better when they pick a civ, so why tf do you wanna know if they picked a civ or not? By following your own logic they’re always picking civs. Your arguments are the ones that don’t make any sense.
Sorry but I’m clearly not the one confused here.
It’s for both. The main purpose of elo is to match players of similar skill level. You can only have a fair match if both players have a similar skill level, it’s simple.
Maybe his elo is lower because not only viper doesn’t play as often, but also because he went afk from voobly?
Lemme show some facts u haven’t been paying attention to
Just from the win/loss you can see that MBL has played much more games than viper and has still been playing a lot in voobly (thus his 29 win streak)
Also
Now let’s look at viper’s match history
As you can see, be4 yesterday the last time viper played an 1v1 in voobly was 30 October, that’s 53 days of inactivity, which means he lost 75 points from being inactive. Now yeah, even with 2643 elo it’s still lower than MBL, but elo isn’t meant to 100% point exactly how skilled someone is, it’s meant to calculate enough to get a gist of around his level is, and it does exactly that (tho inactivity hurt his elo, but that assumes he didn’t play at all, voobly’s system can’t tell if he’s been playing AoE2 in other platforms), so yeah without counting the inactivity elo drop 2643 is around 2677, so it’s fit for both to match and face each other.
Also, here are some extra facts. Viper has been playing a lot of DE recently, so it’s just natural that he won’t pay much attention to voobly, however I’ve been hearing here and there that MBL has been having issues with DE multiplayer (an issue that for some reasons only affect specific players, even when their internet is 100% they’ll keep disconnecting in the middle of the match), so that’s why MBL has been playing on voobly a lot more often than Viper, MBL is unfortunately being affected by this multiplayer issue while other players like Viper aren’t, so they’ll just go back to either voobly or HD. No reason playing ranked when u’ll just keep losing elo for free because of a multiplayer bug that keeps disconnecting you and there’s nothing you can do about it, and I can confirm this only affects some people. I’ve been trying to play on DE with my friend countless times, but he always disconnects in the middle of the match, be only the 2 of us playing, be it we playing with more people, he always disconnects, but I haven’t been disconnected once from this glitch (I did get some disconnections some time ago, but it was because my internet was acting up, not because of this glitch, ik because even discord would disconnect)
It’s because of the context. His elo would be “falsely high” if we say it’s his general elo, when in reality it would only be his elo in that specific scenario. This is what u’re failing to understand.
In a system where only the general elo is calculated, having a high elo because the player only plays a single map/mode is wrong because that elo doesn’t reflect your general skill. Now, in a system where there are different ladders for each specific scenario, and the only plays in that specific scenario and gets a high elo in there then his elo is GOOD, it wouldn’t be falsely high, it’s an actual reflection of his skill in that specific scenario.
This is what people like you don’t get, the problem isn’t the map pool, the problem isn’t the ban system, in a nutshell what you all keep complaining is that the right system was implemented wrongly, but the reality is that the wrong system was implemented correctly. We shouldn’t try to modify this system because it’s already doing what it was meant to, we should instead try to make them implement another system so that players can play the maps they want to play and have an accurate elo for each one of them. In fact, I don’t think this current system should just be thrown away, this could easily be integrated inside a bigger system, so that players have the choice to play a random map from the pool and get their general elo if they want. If they don’t, then they just go and play the map that they want and get their specific elo for that map, and this elo wouldn’t interfere at all with their general elo. I’m pretty sure that a system like that would please everyone, everyone would be allowed to play the maps they want to play and each elo would be calculated appropriately.
The only problem for that to happen is the player base, people keep saying that there aren’t enough players for a huge system like that to work. I can’t tell if this is indeed the case, so: that would be the best? Most probably. Can the devs code a system like that? Yes. Should the devs implement a system like that in the current state of things? Idk.
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I have read through most of the discussion and seen some really good and bad posts on this hard topic of MM map pool, and I wanted to add in my view on it.
Match making(MM) should be about giving an idea of how good you are at AOE DE, but then people that want to specialize in certain maps definitely should be allowed to do it also. That’s why a functioning lobby system with ELO is very importen to work for that player base. (I wont dive into how lobby ELO could/should work this time)
To get a good estimate of how good players are at the game we first have to acknowledge how wast AOE DE is with 35 civs and 100s of different maps that are (to some level randomly) generated for each game. These aspects makes the game too wast to include all maps and all modes in competetive so limitations have to be done, but how should they be done?
Should the “best player” be based on all maps, the most played maps, the “most competitive” map, land maps, open maps, and what settings?
This question is a very hard one and there is no correct answer and it will divide the community, so the developers need to try to catch as many of the player base as possible.
And remember it’s not just for the developers to click a button and then they have the system that you wants, they might need to redo the coding for the whole MM to supply the system you want, but of course communication about what they working on are appreciated but that can be hard to supply also.
My idea of how MM map pool should work is do polls with all maps(the ones that exist and possibility to request others if not exist) for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 & 4v4 separably with 9 or 10 votes and see what maps the community wants in MM and take out the 9-10 most wanted to the map pool.
Then let 1v1s ban 4 maps/player, 2v2s ban 2 maps/player and 3v3 & 4v4 ban 1 map/player
To get some change let it run for 2 weeks then see which 3 maps have been banned the most and exchange them with 3 new that been voted forward.
This system is not perfect, but I think it could please the largest player base and make the decision of MM being chosen by the community instead of “ruling developer”.
Happy holidays!