The Rus bounty system should reward differently

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
1

At the moment I’ve seen a lot of High elo player acheiving Castle Age with the Rus before 10:00 with no sweat and no vills on gold camp.
We’re all seeing Rus genocide Gaia to get a free feudal by producing from 2 to 5 scout through the hunting cabin.
I personnaly think Rus are OP but don’t call me a noob for my elo and hear me out.

(Side note all caps here is used here to catch your attention)

Here is the problem,
Since the Rus have a different playstyle with the hunt and the hunting cabin allowing them to produce scout AND Villager at the same time, it’s easy for them to get at least 200 gold by just playing their game.
It’s a big early advantage and it force their oppenent to at least waste 1 scout production IN THE TOWN CENTER to try to counter them. though it’s not very efficient anyway.
It mean that to SLOW the Rus you have to play their game at a disadvantage or to commit ressources to protect at least your own deer/sheeps.
Worst Rus now may rush Professional Scout to steal your deers! And there is nothing you can do about it except slowing you even more by spending resources to counter SCOUTS.
Unlike old-Delhi were it needed you to invest in a little seige army early to brute force in a well known location to destroy your oppenents forces and neutralize the point. Here you are obliged to counter mere scout stealing your best food revenue .
But don’t mistaken in order to counter the Rus it will force you to play differently AND ask you the same ressources as for Delhi’s scenario. Beside, unlike for Delhi it not part of your goal, it won’t work that much and when Rus are done it’s OVER.

Basically this is not really pleasant to play against, you can’t hope to effectively counter it efficiently and you’ll WASTE TIME and ressources for it. But you can’t afford to ignore it either. No matter what the Rus’s oppenent are in the loosing end here.
That’s why the Rus are so strong in early imo. Free gold + FORCING your oppenent to play differently in a disavantageous way.

I understand the Cabin + Scout gameplay, I know it is part of their identity and you can’t ask for it to change completly.
I still think we need to change it a little bit to allow the Rus’s oppenent to play Normally.
So the solution is balance (not buff nor nurf) and to balance something you need to understand MANY factors and i tried my best !

First: why so many scout ?
The scout can be made in the CABIN allowing the rus to hunt the wild animals through the map WITHOUT WASTING TIME producing them in the forum over villager. Like that the Rus don’t slow down their economy for the Bounty.
Also the more the Rus will make scout the QUICKER they’ll get their bounty reward bonuses. The bounty hunt basically ask you to get 500 Gold from hunt

Second: the cabin.
The cabin is a multi-purpose building. It will allow you to get scout and work also as a mill but DOUBLE THE COST in wood (100W).
In addition it can generate passively gold over time. Also the more tree around it when it was builded the more gold the cabin will generate gold with a kind of influence zone that will give a diminishing return effect on future cabin builded near it.
It force the Player to spread out widely the cabin to get that shiny gold. That gold is generated per minute AT FIRST. But the higher your bounty tier is the more gold generation will occurate per minute. 2x Tier1 to 3x Tier3
In combination with the Hunt gold reward it allow the Rus to AT LEAST got a Free Feudal without much effort and without sending any villagers on gold.
Imagine 3 cabin giving +15 Gold 3 times per minute it gave them 150Gold/minute with 0 VILLAGER golding mine and all the Rus have to do in Feudal is to get villager to wood and food.

Thirst: understanding the Golden Gate strength.
That Landmark by itself is REALLY strong but i don’t think it is really problematic by itslef. In order to think about balancing the early Rus economy we need to consider the whole “economic ecosystem” if i may say.
The Golden Gate (or GG) can allow 1 market transaction per minute at a +50% price advantage. Meaning you can exchange any 100 resources you’ll get 150 Gold or Ressources you paid for. Allowing to produce 1 knight and half each minute without any villager on gold.
And that permission to exchange is stackable to infinite as far as i know. This is really good but for the Rus it mean they don’t have to mine gold at all since 3 villager with no upgrade get a +25% efficency.
So Golden Gate strength is MORE significative with Rus.

Little note :
1 worker get 40resources per minute multiply by 3 you get 120. Every minute you can exchange 100 of it for gold you get 150 so 30 more ressources → 10 per villager 10=1/4 of 40. 1/4 of 100=25 so 25% more ressources from those 3 villager. As if you got 3 on gold with that much resources bonus without investing in the mining tech (=for free).

It’s a HUGE advantage when you take those three factor TOGETHER and it ask nothing special for the Rus player to do in their game plan.

  1. It’s as if the Civ ask you to produce scout in dark age you get free gold out of it.
  2. you obviously already need to make the building
  3. it’s your landmark and since the rest almost prevent you to mine gold it reinforce that aspect.

Now here is my suggestion !

Since Rus have multiple source to get Gold and the current hunting system is a NUISANCE to play against. I’d like to see tha aspect changed in a way that won’t nerf really the Rus but impel them to…how to describe it ? not hunt enemy deers just for gold.
–Here is the thing about it. for other civ stealing oppenent’s deer is just done to prevent your enemy to get food from it and it will cost you 275Gold plus some wood. The risk/reward isn’t really there.
But for the Rus currently they already HAD TO KILL THE DEER and have no strong bonus on a specific food source . So since the deer is already the best food income if they can bring all those deer in the base it’s double the reward by paying the tech the player get a really strong food income equivalent of a food tech for the next 5-10 minute. (also the tech is payed 1 minute after the GG got builded). It’s like double the reward –

I’d like to see those change then :

  1. The Bounty requirement to pass a Tier halfed or diminshed even more to accelerate the access to the next Tier
  2. The incapacity to get gold reward from hunting wildlife when Tier3 unlocked
  3. Since the Tier 3 will be acheived easier and quicker it may be wise to lower either the amount of gold generated by the cabin or the number of time it occur per minute thanks to the Bounty’s bonus (3 cabin at +15Gold plus Golden Gate = 300Gold/minute with no villager on gold and may make Rus early aggression stronger)
  • Without preventing directly the player from hunting oppenent’s deer it will encourage to plan the hunting “do i kill oppenent’s deer first ? but if they already killed them i’ll waste time and allow them to seek for other huntgame…”
  • It won’t prevent the Rus to get the bonus from getting Tier3 bonuses even if oppenents is trying to counter it.
  • That Tier3 will come sooner and easier the cabin will become a more essential income revenue. Yes it may unbalance the current way to eco with the Rus but you won’t cry because you’ll have to invest some villager in Gold will you ?
    I expect that you’ll do less cabin but they’ll be more efficient and the longer the game goes the more cabin you’ll build.
  • Less gold given for free in the early stage, i expect more given via the Tier3 bonus ovetime resulting by a stronger eco mid to late game
  • Slower Age rush. Buh-bye 9minute Castle.
  • The oppenent have less reason to counter the Rus hunt and by that may just have to kill their deer. Because Rus may have less reason to rush Pro scout faster than other civs.
  • It allow easier balance change later for the gold income since all it’ll have to take is buff/nerf the cabin’s gold income or the amount of time it will occur per minute in the tier

It may seem as a nurf but it just make the Hunt less compeling give you more gold genereted from the cabin in exchange making them small relics to cultivate over the map.
I’m aiming for a change for the Rus objective so it allow the oppenent to play more like usual (as when they face other civs). I tried to change the source of early gold income not to diminish/augment it.
So I did not had to take the Golden Gate in consideration but it will be needed for any change in reality.

Please give me your oppinion, i’d like to have other point of view and opinion on the subject and my idea.

5 Likes
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this is really long and convoluted… wtf is your point?

even when you finally get to “I’d like to see those change then :” it isnt even what you want to see changed…

wtf do you actually want to see changed??

there’s some simple changes:

  1. scouts tt at cabin is doubled or even tripled

  2. scouts speed is lowered by 25% when carrying a carcass and it takes 2 sec to pick up a carcass

  3. scout hp lowered by 20hp. they are supposed to be scouts, not front line meat shields

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I would recommend changing Forum to Town Center. It took me a while to realize what you were talking about, and it wasn’t until you mentioned scout and vil production at the same time that I realized. Just saying.

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I just think they need a nerf to hunting cabin gold gen if the trees are chopped down. A single hunting Cabin can be as good as a relic late game. Too much free gold for the rus. Bounty, though, I feel is very unique and fair.

They need a nerf to cav archers too IMO.

It was very hard to read your post and I don’t know if the title was at all on topic.

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But why should we want this in a asymmetric RTS? Learning 1 strategy and then using it vs every other civ is just so shallow. You need to adapt to your opponents playstyle and civ. I hate that everyone want to balance all civs for every age. Some civ have early advantages, some have lategame advantages and its the players duty to understand how to counter those. Every civ can go professional scouts, but ofc the rus can do it better because hunting is one of their main themes.

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Oh please not - Rus bounty system is fine. Maybe professional scouts need a small nerf (lower movement speed when carrying hunt back) and cav archers seem a small bit too strong (don’t over nerf my boys so).

10min castle age is easily possible with any civ on any map - but rus can actually do <8min CA. But after all we wan an assymetric rts - you don’t want rus bounty system changed like the dehli sacred site rush imo.

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Haha that’s the issue when you are used to your own native language version of the game and you suddenly change it in english. You mix up some names time to time ^^’
And since “Forum” refer to the same building it didn’t catch my eye at all.

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  1. the begining is the context i put for people like you to understand my thinking process
  2. my title and the quote you made are my point
  3. your nerf of the scout will touch everyone. The scout isn’t problematic by itself so if a scout in a certain civ is problematic it mean that’s the civ the issue not the scout.
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totally agree with your point of view. yes the hunt cabin give a lot of gold. yes the cav archer are a tiny bit too strong for their cost if you compare them with the camel archer (mangudai are borken too weak. don’t look at them lol)

Sorry about that bro how was it difficult to read ? the title resume my ideas of the change and the 3/4 of the text above my ideas include the context and factor i had in mind that explain how rus are so strong.
For me the abnormal strength of the Rus are that too easy, forgiving and adaptable eco in early. That bring to a toxic strategy on their oppenent that can play theirs before they tried ineffectively to counter the Rus hunt.
The cav archer is not the main reason why rus are strong with that unit.

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First and foremost → Asymetrical don’t justify unbalance !

I agree with the carrying speed being lowered but it won’t fix the issue with the Rus. Their issue imo is by just palying normaly - with no thought, skill, much effort - they disrupt their oppenent economy or get a huge economic advantage over them. Or both. This is not just asymetric at this point. And it’s not pleasant to play against. THE RUS ARE THE ONLY ONE that force you to adapt your usual start no matter the map for them. AND the oly one that have powerspike all game long non-stop.
AGE I : HUNT
AGE II : Mass cav archer
AGE II : Whatever you were doing in stronger
AGE IV : currently best siege in the game (MAY change if they fix the strength reppartition between either range/melee or seige/other military)

The early advantage the rus from their abnormal early does set all the piece to win without having for the Rus player to plan anything or adapt on their oppenent.
Unlike their oppenent like sayed someone above you :

Next.

OK 8 minute instead of “prior 10 min” doesn’t change the point. they don’t sacrifice as much for that strat does they ?

  1. why not ?
  2. i get that change is scary but that change lower the skill floor and don’t touch the skill ceiling (or skill cap)
  3. you don’t get the difference between the current bounty mechanic and the delhi sacred site apparently that’s two separate thing with two different strength and delhi’s sacred got two weakness where the rus got none by essence.

I’ve compare them with the camel and honestly it’s more or less a legit unit. maybe add 20 food to cav archer’s cost that’s all. their are not that tanky and their strength reside on their speed + range that is 1unit to great and the same cast as horsemen (too cheap for the unit’s value imo)

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I dont get your points on a few things:

How does RUS disrupt your eco in a huge way? You mean you need to kill your hunt and wolves? Just build a 2nd scout and you should be fine on this.
Rus still need to adapt a lot to the opponent - if they get archer ram rushed they prob want to open knights - they need to check is the opponent trying to match the castle age(you can easily go for a 1min later FC then the RUS FC) or is he going 2 TC slower castle or does he feudal push the RUS when the RUS hits castle or just before - you will die as RUS if you open horsearcher vs RAM/longbow - you prob want to go MAA here - we saw in recent showmatches RUS dieing multiple times just when they hit castleage vs Mongols/English.

Cav archers are only available in the castle age.

Rus are the top civ on open land maps with Mongols. They are rly strong - but I wouldn’t say they are completely broken - just nerving professional scouts and the horse archers a tiny bit and they will be in a perfect spot.

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I seriously doubt you understand the OP’s point and have played against the Rus meta at high elo.

(1) Rus can get scouts from the cabin whereas everyone else has to train it from the TC. By implication, getting your own scouts slows down your own economy. Don’t forget, Rus also get a food gathering bonus from their bounty so they can afford to spam scouts.
(2) Horse archers are a castle age unit, true, but the problem is HOW Rus gets to the castle age. They don’t touch their gold vein so there is almost no way to slow down their tech. There is literally nothing to attack.
(3) The problem with horse archers is that they do too much damage for the cost, i.e. they shred through armored units at a base damage of [12].

I also like to add to the OPs points by saying that the current Rus meta is like a golden passage of play. Rus scout spam at age I gives them good vision, food from corpses, and lets them stack their bounty quickly. This will let them tech to age III QUICK. The scouts that are already pumped out are by no means useless. Invariably, the scouts serve as meat shields for their horse archer spam. Right now, the best way to counter horse archers are to get horsemen and knights. Getting the horsemen and knights to land knights on horse archers is hard enough because of the relative speeds. It gets harder when scouts are involved because if you use the attack ground command, you will joust into scouts doing no bonus damage to them. Horsemen and knights are also NOT cost effective to trade against horse archers.

If you somehow get to age IV, you will likely gace strelties spam…

So I agree with OP’s points and think Rus needs a nerf. Either by directly nerfing cabins, the bounty system, and/or the horse archers.

3 Likes
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i didn’t thought that was needed to explain. So this appear obvious to me.
Only i disagree about the damage of the cav archers wich i think is ok compared to camels and others range unit at the same age through the civs. The part wich isn’t justified are their price and their range (especially their imp tech) when they got that much movespeed.

what about archers ? Easier to get a critic mass to OS 1 cav arch and got a better range.

Finally

i’ll never used high elo or low elo as an argument. if something is too strong on paper it mean that no matter the players level it will be too strong. Because this is an analyse that don’t take player level in count we have to visualise a scenario wich the two oppenent have the same skill level and capabilities.
AND HERE Rus got too much early advantage and never slow down at any moment in the game. Wich i’ll resume to “too strong”.

Now my solution is certainly not perfect but it bring up the issue and give a solution early without slowing down the Rus afterward.

To the Rus Mains :
Truly playin against them is a bother and it’s not related to the player’s skill but just the Rus mechanics. And i agree with those above saying this game should ask you to plan a strategy and counter your oppent’s one. Problem is in this case Rus player didn’t plan anything they’re just playing casualy and the asymetry of gameplay turn in an asymetry of advantage dragged all game long with no skill implied.

Doesn’t mean your wins IG is not legit and you have no skill. It mean you certainly had some game wich your civ alone was the key factor of your game result (wich is a win here obviously) and in a competitive game it’s unacceptable

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So they should remove scouts from the hunting cabin? In my opinion a civ that relies to kill hunt to gain their bonus should have an advantage as its probably the bonus that can be the most contested in early game and once hunt is killed it won’t respawn(and the deer landmark is kinda bad). Also a +10% food gather rate bonus doesn’t mean that they can spam scouts early too much without delaying their castle age timing.

You can slow them down by taking the hunt yourself. Of course this is not the easiest task and your eco will get hurt, however if you let the rus free reign over the map than it’s somewhat deserved to lose the castle race. Or you just play mongols and go for an early stable.
Im with you that horse archers are too strong, either reduce their damage or increase cost for sure, especially in combination with the monk buff and scouts as a meatshield and the unique tech for the extra cav hp.

Archers just lack mobility on most maps. A good rus player will just raid left and right and your archers will only run in circles.

It should be an argument. Skill should be rewarding but an experienced player will also unlock the true potential of a civ, thus showing imbalance far better than casuals.

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I actually don’t mind playing vs the RUS (the hunting contest in the start is quite fun - was even more fun with animation canceling) and ofc Ik that hunting cabins can produce scouts @Dlyzz - I played some games with RUS myself and can easily FC in <9min with them.

I don’t think the bounty system should be touched at all with RUS - also not the hunting cabins producing scouts - that’s the unigue part of the civilization.

The problem with the RUS I see is that their castleage gameplan is too scripted if your opponent doesn’t rush you: You go CA+Scouts + fetch all the relics with your warrior monks. A nerf to professional scouts(movement speed) will nerf the RUS fc quite a bit. And nerfing CA a bit in the castleage should open up more unit choices and strategies vs the RUS and for the RUS.

Getting a 2nd scout is not setting your eco far behind and is for sure worth it vs the RUS.

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i agree. In game if you are better/smarter than your oppenent you should win. But here it’s an hypothetical scenario to challenge the civ’s strength/weaknesses against other civ ON PAPER. The best is to picture two equally skilled player. If one civ got a huge advantage or force a player to slow down their civ’s basic gameplan
passively. It mean that civ is straigth up BETTER. In a competitive game it should be seen as a flaw and be corrected.

And i remember an argument about this game using asymetrical gameplay. My answer to that don’t sastisfy me here is the best way to cut that argument → Asymetrical =/= Unbalance. We should keep the asymetry and get rid of that unbalance. Or we’ll see EVERYONE play most of the time the same civ no matter your elo.

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well nobody really care if you enjoy playing an overpowered civ. And that you don’t mind playing against them too. It’s not part of the subject here. The question isn’t either if Rus are too strong because they obviously are or people won’t play them most of the time. The question is why are they so strong and how to balance that so they get legit as strong as other civs without destroying their identity like the balance time did with Delhi.

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Well, Rus did very poorly in Genesis when people have been still playing a lot of knights with them instead of cav archers - I just don’t think that the bounty systems or scouts from the cabin are the problem making RUS so strong. If you nerf the bounty system you won’t make the rus a more diverse civ - you need to nerf CA as they are played every game.

And too me enjoying playing RUS - they are the 5th most played civ for me. I don’t know why everybody always thinks people are maining a civ - too much sc2 players here maybe? I also got instantly attacked as Chinese fire lancer abuser for thinking Chinese fire lancers are only too strong vs buildings…

I fear you lack the understanding that balance is very fragile a CA + professional scouts nerf alone probably is more than enough to balance the RUS. It’s not like RUS are dominating competitive play - they are top 2 with mongols on open land maps. And ofc people are worried of balance changes after my most played civ dehli got dehlited on non hybrid maps.

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how does this forum work? suffer a couple of losses that you don’t like and start asking to change everything.

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Play Mongol, problem solved. you can let Rus do whatever they want you dont even have to contest the deers just do a Steppe Redoubt fast castle then steamroll the horse archer with lancer+mangudai, easy peasy.