Three advices,one for Asian consulate and two for China

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
25

I would like to keep Chu Ko Nu.
This is an entertainment piece anyway, and it is not undesirable to have something less accurate for the sake of entertainment. Although CKN has never been a commonly used weapon by the Chinese in the real world, it is a classic symbol of Chinese civilization in the AOE franchise since 1999. Since this game still belongs to AOE, it is not a problem for it to have CKN, or in other words, it should have CKN.

The three-eyed Gunner can still be used as a completely new unit rather than replacing the CKN. As long as we give Chinese civilization a way to access it, such as shipping it from HC, or even introducing potential Chinese Isolation options (replacing Germans in the Consulate) to offer it.

I know that solving the artillery problem of Asian civilizations is a good topic, but in my opinion it should not be like this, allowing players to train cannons that can be automatically upgraded in Castles with general resources and in a general way. Otherwise, this would amount to completely removing the intentional limitations to these civs and suddenly making Castle artillery their advantage. In other words, it not only harms the identity of civilization but also breaks the balance.

I came up with a similar concept, but still kept the core design that European cannons still have to be obtained through the consulate with exports.

I used to support this idea, but now I don’t think so anymore.

The banner armies are the identity of this civilization, but also its intentional limitations. Removing them is likely to make the civilization lose its characteristics and seriously affect the existing balance. I guess the devs wouldn’t want to do this.

Even assuming it were to be implemented, it would be an Age IV card rather than an Age III card, and it would likely be expensive. Also, after this card arrives, each unit will be at least 10% more expensive I guess.

If I were to do something with the banner armies, what I would prefer is to put the Age II banner armies in one type of building and the Age III banner armies in another.

26

Friend,I wish to know what do you think about my thrid advice, the card “Chinese artillery elite training”.

27

Friend,if we train artillery in the castle,we will spend more resources,for example,if we want to train an Organ Gun,we will cost 600 coin,more than usual.And if we train heavy cannons,we will train it individual,not in a group,this will not break the balance.

Although it is an identity of this civilization and its intentional limitations.I still keep my opinion just because it has seriously Interference to battle command.Even I train them individual more expensive,I still accept it.

28

English is not my first language so please bear with me, as my sentences wont be as readable as I would like them to be.

Answer 1) Yes if you see it as an entertainment piece you are absolutly right, I am pretty sure the majority of the community wouldn’t approve of it anyway.

Answer 2) I think we dont even need the three-eyed gunner to be a consulate unit but instead it can be a new gunpowder unit that you produce in the castle.

Also removing the exististing Banner Armies would be probably too much work, I just wish that every unit is viable at Age 4 and beyond because at the moment you are forced to go Old Dynasty Reforms simply because Arquebusiers are that bad and get outperformed.
Dont get me wrong yes they are cheaper than regular Skirmisher and they do a fantastic job at Age 3 - just look at Chinas winrate in 1v1 - but the moment you are Age 4 and compare them to Age 4 Chu Ko Nu’s even without Old Han Dynasty you will see that they are statwise worse than a man with a crossbow that only costs f-ing food.

Now if you look at India with its card “Indian Gunpowder” or the Ottomans with their “Acemi Oglam School” they are all awesome in their own way.
And as Chinas strong suit isn’t artillery wouldn’t it be nice if China had something like that in Age 4 for their Territorial Army maybe just change the card “Western Reforms” a bit and it would be enough.
Please note that I don’t want them cheaper, just better they can even be more expensive as it happens with “Old Dynasty Reforms”.

29

You can make an existing Fire Dragon Manual card provide more benefits to Flamethrowers and Flying Crows, but making this card have a cost.

Maybe a new card called “Crouching Tiger Cannon” that gives Hand Mortars a boost at the cost of using 2 population.

No need for Chinese artillery elite training.

The way and rate of obtaining coins is completely different from export, which is the key point. Also, having only one building accessible to them is completely different from having five buildings accessible to them.

When you use ordinary resources such as coins to train these artillery, this means that the threshold for obtaining them in the later period will be much lower than the current one. At that point, your economy is such that higher coin costs don’t really have much of a restraining effect.

Asian civilizations are designed to require the use of special resources to obtain these artillery, which is an intentional threshold so they have their advantages in other aspect.

This is exactly the core identity of this civilization, that is, your units are very cheap and cost-effective, but you must also afford the units you don’t need as much. This also reflects the fact that the Qing Dynasty (especially in the later period) had a large population, but the average working ability of each population was low.

To put it bluntly, the Banner Armies will not be cancelled.

The Consulate is a great place to go when you want more than just one unit. China Isolation can provide new unique units such as Three-eyed Gunner, Lang Xian, Glaive Cavalry, Jingal and so on. Also, because the Germans arrived in China too late, their influence on the Qing Dynasty was very limited and was not as good as other European countries.

Additionally, the Three-eyed Gunner is not similar to the Abus Gunner if this is what you think so. The three-eyed gun is essentially a type of hand cannon, an ancient gunpowder weapon, so it should have a short range but can fire three projectiles at once. It should therefore be a heavy infantry similar to a musketeer.

30

That is also a great idea,but i still think they should be enhanced in age4.

31

Well, Fire Dragon Manual is an age IV card already. And Crouching Tiger Cannon also can be put in the age IV.

32

That’s also a great idea,I hope to see it in the next update.

33

I don’t like the banners just because I don’t like melee infantry hahaha,If a kind of banner has musketeer and skirmisher，of course I like it.

34

Melee infantry have their strengths and are often used by high elo players. Just saying.

It sounds like all you need is a mod which cancel the banner armies.

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In fact there is already has a mod canceled the banners called"military reform rebalance“,but I still wish we can make it true without mod.

36

But my biggest concern is still the handmortar and flying crow enhance.

37

Yes either that way with the Consulate which opens the opportunity to add new units or just as I said as a Castle unit. Furthermore I absolutly agree with your point about all the european artillery as it defeats the purpose of playing an asian civ if you want the artillery arsenal of the european civs.

However why am I the only one that advocates more Arquebusier play in Age 4, everyone seems to ignore this topic everytime I speak about it XD? I am not saying nerf Chu Ko Nu just that Arquebusiers also get an Age 4 buff because they really suck at Age 4. Beside that its also super weird for the Army composition, you play Age 2 crossbow/pike, Age 3 you switch to skirm/swordsman just to go back at Age 4 to crossbow/pike.

Am I really the only one that wants more viable unit diversity in Age 4? (I hope this sentence makes sense for you)
And its not something that requires a lot of work, this is just one little stat or card change and is well within the capabilities of the Developers.

38

TBH there is absolutely no historical background. The real banner system in Qing Dynasty was based on ancestry, family-clans and they were just like battalions of european army formations and also some sort of political system. Any army has that type of divisions…it is not like putting different type of army together and bundle them…it is completely misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

39

Its a mechanic and is fine as it is to make the civ unique.

Edit: About Banner armies

40

Yeah it was a civil defence weapon. The quarrels didn’t have much penetrating force but they were often used on mass by civvies when defending walls and through windows and such. Often they were also poisoned. So it could be toned down in power but given a poison affect.

The military used real crossbows and composite bows.

41

I wish the chinese artillery will be enhanced in the future,especially the hand mortar.

42

For other civilizations, archaic units that cost wood tend not to have a place in the late game. This is indeed a place worth adjusting. In theory, archaic units should be powerful from the Age II to the early Age III, and then gradually decline. But we still need a card to buff Keshiks in the Age IV.

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43

Yes would be really great if they would make the Chinese Arquebusiers more viable. There are many options how they could do it that are easily feasible, its more of a question if they care and sadly nobody seems to care about this topic.

44

I tried to solve this problem by redesigning the cards but keeping the total number of cards.
The intention is to make Qiang/CKN no longer stronger but easier to gather in the late game, thereby reducing their competition with Changdao/Arquebusiers.

No changes:

  • Mongolian Scourge (II)
  • Repelling Volley (III)
  • Siege Combat (III)

Removed:

  • Siege Hitpoints (II)
  • Siege Attack (II)
  • Standard Army Hitpoints (II)
  • Territorial Army Combat (III)
  • Manchu Combat (III)
  • Old Han Reforms (IV)

With changes:

  • Double-Faced Armor (II): Moved to Age II and also affects Steppe Riders, but affects Keshiks just from Age III.
  • New Army (III): Renamed to “New Weaponry”, and also gives Changdao & Arquebusiers +5% HP.
  • Fire Dragon Manual (IV): Gives Flamethrowers & Flying Crows better improvements than their current effects, but costs 300 coins.
  • Western Reforms (IV): Also allows researching Infantry Breastplate, Flint Lock and Paper Cartridge in Villages.

New cards:

  • Old Tactics (II): Gives CKN, Qiang & Flamethrowers +20% HP.
  • Baturu (III): Gives Qiang, Changdao & Keshiks +15% HP & attack.
  • Field Force (III): Gives Changdao, Arquebusiers & Meteor Hammers +15% HP & attack.
  • Imperial Hunt Ritual (IV): Gives Steppe Riders & Keshiks +50% HP & attack, but +25% cost.
  • Tuanlian System (IV): Gives CKN & Qiang free Disciplined upgrade, -33% cost & train time.
  • Crouching Tiger Cannon (IV): Gives improvements to Hand Mortars, but also makes them use 2 population.

Reuse card icons:

  • Standard Army Hitpoints → Old Tactics
  • Manchu Combat → Field Force
  • Old Han Reforms → Tuanlian System

On the other hand, War Academic is divided into two buildings: Banner Camp and Banner Garrison.

  • Banner Camp: Costs 150 wood, Buildable from Age II, can train Old Han, Standard, Ming, and Mongolian, and upgrade their units.
  • Banner Garrison: Costs 250 wood, Buildable from Age III, can train Territorial, Forbidden, Imperial, and Black Flag, and upgrade their units.

Hopefully this approach will slow down the power of FF a bit and encourage people to stay in Age II longer.

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