I like Frank having Farm upgrades for free, just like Burmese have wood upgrades for free. There are a lot of better bonus. The main problem of Franks is that they have so many boni: Farm upgrade + fast berries+ pseudo-free bloodlines, which make them very strong for the whole game. And then they have the cheaper castles from castle age onwards.
As someone suggested, it might be better to move the berries bonus to another civ. But beside that, they are fairly well balanced in 1v1. The problem is the team games, where they have arguably the best cavalry for the whole game (instant lesser bloodlines for scouts in feudal + better bloodlines on the knight line from castle age, when we do not want to use scouts anymore). Maybe nerfing Chivalry may be the way to go, but i doubt it is enough.
For the Vikings, I think we pretty much all agree that free wheelbarrow + free handcart is way too much. But at the same time, the civ is defined by a strong eco + FU arbalesters, so they should never be a weak civ in team game. I think removing free handcart would be good, or as you said, keep only either the free cost or the instant research time of both techs. These 3 options sound good to me.
New list for empire wars s-tier civs:
1.ethopians start res removed at start in empire wars (since they start in feuldan an not reach it, jsut how they deleted lithuanians free food that dominated in RB1)
2.brits only +1 free range in imp, no more mango snipping without atleast getting the UT
3.franks mill upgrades 50% cheaper (not free or instant), also lose squirres again
4. Cumans all military production buildings -50 wood (barracks, stable, archery, workshop)
5.vikings handcard and wheelbarrow researched free bot not instant
On the new civs:
1.Houfnice extra aoe nerfed below Ethiopian torsion engine bbc or better removed, but upgrade cost lowered
2. Obuch remove only one 1 meele or one 1 pierce armor per attack and not both per swing, each time targeting the higher armor value, and when tied remove meele.
Sounds like a load of coding which opens up room for bugs… when the unit could be nerfed with raw stats n cost instead
Not a bad idea. Makes its higher HP and dmg more attainable even if it loses that super sweet aoe
Not sure why it isn’t already implemented…
Omg I wish… but who knows if this will ever happen, half the ladder would certainly breath a sigh of relief… if you haven’t seen that Reddit post “which civ do you lose the most to”
All good. Especially the cuman change to encourage diversity and actually potentially encourages their siege…
Nerfs their 4 range madness, but they’re still saving 150w with double stables or 1 of each (due to rax as well) so still very good
This is a buff actually. 5% extra cheaper tech in feudal is a lot more valuable when you have 25-40 working vills vs 5% less cheaper tech in imp with 100+ vills.
These are some good nerfs but even with Chu ko nus nerfed Chinese will be very powerful if they get a 15% flat tech discount instead of incrementally increasing bonus.
For 1v1s this is far more powerful than current Chivalry. Pretty much any fight will be of more value to the Franks player. I think in a different thread I saw something like Chivalry - Stable research speed +40%, unit production speed +20%. I think that’s more of a neat nerf.
Great suggestions. Good nerfs while still keeping gameplay intact.
Maybe one less arrow?
No that would be huge for an already weak late game. Instead one of the threads suggested wheelbarrow free but handcart -50% cost. That seems a good nerf.
I agree its an unusual bonus for a non-cavalry civ. But it comes into play very late in the game. I think this rework can wait one patch to see if its necessary to revoke it.
+1
Ya that was an annoying change. Picking up 4 relics in TGs was never easy.
Nah, I think only Mayans are too strong right now. Also supplies needs to be removed, militia set at 50F20G and goth bonus turned down a bit in return (not that goths are too strong). Longswords need a small defensive stat buff so we might see people invest into M@A more as well.
This way Japanese, Bulgarians and Burmese will climb tier rankings as they can finally use M@A line throughout the game.
Hauberk just makes up for sicilian lack of Paladin against archer civs. it is definitely not too strong. Actually they should buff it to also affect another unit, like fireship or trebutchet or something.
I like how the stats of the Serjeant improves when you age
It would be a nice buff for the militia line to implement something like this: Improve some stats on your militia line when you age
It may also be interesting to entirely move the wood discount (for ranges and stables) to Siege Workshop. Like -100 or -150 wood. It would be nive to see rams + archers or rams + pikes in feudal age.
To be fair, they did not really balance empire wars yet. As far as I know they only removed the mayans/chinese villager bonus and the lituanians/persians resource bonus.
Outright removal is a bad idea. The point of a nerf isn’t to outright nuke them and make them non viable. Look what happened to lithuanians with the removal of their food. No longer seen. At all. Lithuanians are f tier in empire wars. Is that fair or balanced? Nope. I’d say reduce the bonus.
I object to this entire thread. Quit nerfing everything to the point of being boring to play. you should focus on improving the civs you think are subpar instead of turning the game into crap. the term nerf just sounds like ■■■■ and you all want to keep doing it until everything is garbage.
I think you don’t understand, as long as those civs continue to be as they are, you can buff the subpar ones beyond limits yet barely can compete because that ones are just soo strong and too versatile (Franks and Britons, for example, they can’t let other civs like Persians, Spanish, Magyars, Vietnamese, Italians and Koreans to shine, as they can’t compete with them).
Also
Becomes into a huge way to ruin civs, look what happened to Koreans, still subpar and quite weak on most situations, but with a strat that is just broken for Arena (Double Castle War Wagon), is bad design. Or Burmese (Their problems vs archers aren’t adressed, but their elephants are currently broken on TG thanks by that buff…)
That unit is always situational. Removing supplies would actually hurt these civs in the long run because supplies is very cheap and if someone wants to go all-in man-at-arms they can always cancel 2 maa in the queue and get supplies. This might just help players add an extra maa or militia but that’s about it.
It is actually. For Paladin you need to wait 3 mins and spend 1300f, 750g. This is a lot cheaper and faster. And gives 1 p.armor more than a Paladin. When you combine this with the Sicilian bonus damage resistance, it makes a huge impact. Cavaliers can single handedly beat halb-arbs combos.
That being said, I’m not in favor of nerfing it as Sicilians lack any other power units or good early game eco bonus. So for a slow civ, good late game power isn’t bad necessarily.
Vikings, Aztecs, Chinese, Franks too. Vikings needless to say. Its a 700 resource + 6 vill difference and 10/20% faster farming till opponent gets wheelbarrow and handcart. Chinese gives u a free 2 vill lead and you can save resources on every tech and have a nearly full tech tree. Aztecs +3 carry capacity is about 8-10% faster farms and 11% faster military production. Franks have bonuses across all ages too. Forage, Mill upgrades, free extra hp, faster stables in imp.
They still are very vulnerable to halbs, camels (resource wise), monks, siege, and FU HCAs can still kite them to death.
When they had 8 pierce armor you’re saying that civs that lack either arbalests or bracer did auto-lose against burmese?
Not to mention that they are still slower than archers, even with husbandry.
Indeed Cumans have to be added to the pool of pending nerfs to S tier civs. It’s not just in EW, they’re very unpleasant in 1v1 RM too. But I guess outside EW, we could wait and see till the patch after next.
Cumans aren’t S tier yet, their winrates at 1v1 are just fine, also pros don’t rate them S tier, only at EW they seem to be stronger.
If anything tone down the Archery Range and Stable discount to 33% less wood.
TEAMGAMES!!! You can instruct your flank to target Halbs and Camels, hence why they aren’t common units at TGs.
Is a problem for those civs that lack good archers not Burmese.
pffff… you can use them as damage soakers instead to kill archers as you think.
Liereyy also said Burmese elephants maybe are broken now with this patch.
Assuming you are pocket with burmese, you instruct your flank to kill counters, fair enough, and you both attack some enemy guy.
The poor guy’s pocket/flank just watches and let him die? You don’t need burmese to win like that, honestly.
With this reasoning you just need to pick Persians and you automatically win against anything in team games, just instruct your flank to kill monks or siege, and let Elite war elephants destroy everything.
A pro guy said that MAYBE they’re broken? OK, pros’ opinions are valuable, but a bit of testing might be required.
What about other pros’? Do they agree?