It would make them terrible. Franks didn’t have this back in aoc days and were bad.
What would make sense in your eyes then? Because from your standpoint Franks seem to be a problem and are too dominant
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Franks problem isn’t their paladins attack. Dverying avout them is streamlined. You have to hit their eco but do so in a way that doesn’t cripple them.
Either way you don’t nerf the guy running second when the guy running first has a 10 second lead.
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What kind of terrible player would let a cavalry unit with 1.4 base speed stand in range of archers when their primary benefit is killing melee cavalry? And in what world does a team game have a 2v1 where a cavalry player has to kill both paladins and archers such that the leitis can’t just hang back? You can lose 1/3rd paladins and still crush arbs.
This just screams “rationalization” to me.
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I don’t think taking away their berry bonus would cripple them. Franks are just an amazing civ for new players that prefer berries over boar and start farming straight away. You also don’t have to remember upgrades for farms and your cavalry to be good. Remeber that Franks have three bonuses kicking before the first 10 minutes of the game. Of course they are strong
Fact is, Lithuanians have way better military while Franks have better eco. It is okay to slightly lose that advantage as the game progresses
Imo, if theres anything to nerf about Franks, I would remove the free farms upgrade and balance it with increasing the berry bonus (and if thats not enough buffing slightly the cav hp bonus)
So you’re somehow going to find a way for those leitis to engage your opponents cavalry without the enemies archers being nearby? Do you even understand how team games are played? The archers are the most important part. The job of cavalry is to keep them alive. Which means a competent team way will keep there cavalry near tge archers.
Franks were awful before rhe berry bonus.
You are forgetting the +20% HP starting in Feudal Age (in Dark Age at that time) that came with the buff
Free farm upfrades isn’t that good to carry them. Look at sicilians.
Heck teutons with dirt cheap farms are a solid mid tier at best.
If you’re gonna nerf franks and lithuanians down to teutons level, you’re gonna make rhe game an archer fest.
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No chance, the berry bonus is already just worth about 2/3 of the first farm upgrade.
The farm bonus plus basically free bloodlines is carrying them for the most part.
Not that the berry bonus doesn’t help. For sure it does, but the farm bonus is worth so much more.
Yeah thats why franks were super awesome back in aoc days and sicilians are awesome now
Teutons have the best eco bonus of all of them (maybe even the best cav eco bonus next to Khmer) and their place on a tier list has more to do with mobility. Teutons are amazing on closed maps.
I don’t understand the argument here. Lithuanians have the best paladin in the game if you get your relics. Assuming you are playing a team game you are very likely getting 4 relics. You cannot match Lithuanian paladin if you don’t have Frank paladin. Lithuanian knights kill everything in Castle Age.
The only difference is that Frank players don’t have to “work” for their bonus, but it is still inferior to the +4 attack
Disagree. It’s way more complicated and can be broken down that easily.
Fact is Franks are generally seen superior to lith as tg pocket already.
Also bec mor health on palas is actually much more important in tg than the attack, actually.
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I disagree. I think if you double the berry bonus (and maybe increase the hp bonus to 25%) they would be fine.
The berry bonus pays off much much earlier
I am talking about the unit line alone. Franks are better because they have 2 and a half eco bonuses so naturally they are better. Lithuanian paladins are the better unit though
And yet franks still have the better win and playrate.
And crap outside of that. How often do you see teutons on Arabia or in tournaments that aren’t arena? If you nerf lithuanians and franks down to the level of teutons rhe top civs are
Mayans
Aztecs
Vikings
Chinese
Britons
And then everyone else. Notice anything missing your top 5?
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And rhe point is clearly strength of a unit doesn’t mean much. Vikings arbs are completely generic but rhe civ is one of rhe top civs in the game
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Well that would be overkill…
I just say you could take away the berry bonus in exchange for a minor buff somewhere else and franks would still be competitive.
The way you propose might also be possible, but man, what an ado and needs further balancing afterwards for sure.
And wouldn’t allow to give the berry bonus to a generally underwhealming civ to make it competitive in at least these maps.
Mat I usually like your posts but not your dodging. You are not adressing my question and are just throwing in the “winrate high why nerf” in the conversation. It brings no value into this. Franks are easy to play → highest play rate of the game. Franks have a clear game plan and you don’t need a lot of strategy to play them → high win rate (for lower levels).
Lithuanians don’t have that but it doesn’t make them a worse civ. They are the better civ in my opinion even (1v1 experience though).
Pretty often actually. Hideout, those funky Hidden Cup maps, Land Madness. There are enough examples.
Yes mobility, range and eco. All of your civs have the best eco in the game.
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You can do this with the farming techs free too.
And in either case you will need further balancing. I proposed 30% faster berries because Franks previously had 25% faster berries and were still okay-ish even if stronger. The extra hp would be just in case its clearly necesary.