Usac's Civ Crafting Brainstorms Part 1- Toltecs

For those who don’t know me, and sadly many of you don’t, I’m a civ idea crafter at heart, have been for nearly 2 decades now, but sadly they say Ideas are worthless, which I kinda despise as an idea heavy person. Anyway, Civ Time

Courtesy of Seicing! Go upvote him until he suffocates in butt loads of cash!

Toltecs - Oh boy its the civ I’m the only person I know ever makes. That makes me the cool crafter… right? I’m the cool kid!

The Toltecs were an ethnic group of Pre-Columbian Mexicans that was forced to relocate in the 490s by other Mexican tribes. Though some put it around 674.

They built the city of Tula, which withstood for many years against invading Chichimeca and other tribes and Mexican peoples.

They invented a new forms of sugar and utilized Tortillas for convenient way to transport food for marching armies. This isn’t a joke

Many of the Toltec’s feats are a bit blurred by conflicting codices, but it is known that the Toltecs worked with metallurgy and tended to be ahead of their enemies in military training.

The League of Mayapan formed in 987 in response to Toltec invasion. Quickly thereafter began the decline of Toltec power. They lost territorial control over much of the Yucatan peninsula. In 1122, the Toltec capitol of Tula was burned to ashes and its final defeat followed a Mexica invasion. After the Toltecs fell and Tula was destroyed, large portions of the Yucatan population disappeared and a power vacuum grew in Mexico . It remained for at least a century or so until the Aztecs took to power, building on many of the same tactics and ideas of the Toltecs before them.

The Toltecs as a civ represent a pre-European time when there were no horses and mass diseases. Just lots of spears, swords, macanas and Eagles… too bad the Toltecs didn’t really master them very well. But they’re definitely more defensive than their neighbors and always have been.

Toltecs: A Defensive Civ

  • Skirmishers +1 damage vs archers per age (+ 3total)

When the name of the game is enemy Mayapan, you gotta think about stopping Archer Rushes and FAST. This bonus is brutal, perhaps too much so? Either way it deters archer play. If too much, reduce damage at points.

  • Start +75w, 75s

A defensive Tula with the finest walls and forested wood.

  • Town Center Techs have 60% less cost and research time (excludes Age up)

Not the most historical but don’t underestimate this bonus. You’ll find that not only are you 75w and 50s ahead of your enemies, when you click Loom you are also 15s and 30g ahead leaving extra gold for Drush militia. It’s no Viking Wheelbarrow bonus but don’t underestimate it!

Team Bonus: Blacksmith, Dock, Monastery 2x build speed

Workrate is overrated and used a few times as is. Great for getting the smithing up faster and if you build both faster you’re on your way up the Ages that much faster. Also decent for water maps

So far it has a decent early age. Let’s give it some tech tree!

Missing Techs:

  • Barracks: Elite Eagle Warrior
  • Archery Range: Cavalry Archer, Hand Cannoneer, Parthian Tactics, Elephant Archer
  • Stable: All of it!
  • Siege Workshop: Heavy Scorpion, Bombard Cannon
  • Blacksmith: Scale Barding
  • University: Bombard Tower, Heated Shot
  • Dock: Heavy Demo Ship, Cannon Galley
  • Monastery: Fervor, Faith
  • Economy: /
  • Castle: Sappers

There it is. The missing eagle. A majestic Elite upgrade and you can’t get it! You get nothing! Well, do you? You get almost everything else a meso gets it seems. But lets run some unique features.

UU: Xochilite - Half pop archer with the power to kill siege but no other bonus damages.

Xochilite Stats Elite
Health 25 30
Attack (Pierce) 3 (+5 vs Siege) 4 (+8 vs Siege)
Range 5 5
LoS 8 8
Movespeed 1.1 1.1
Armor -1/-1 0/-1
Cost 25w/15g
Train Time 9 8
To Elite 600w/550g 35s


The basic gist is that Queen Xochitl, in a desperate, move gathered many Toltec women and trained them for war in a desperate bid to win against the Mayapan. She lost and died in the battle so these units being half effective but almost everywhere feels kind of fitting. While they weren’t archers specifically, this civ could benefit from the anti-siege power very specifically.

UT 1: Tortilla - Food income increased by 20%. Farmers no longer need to move around the farm while they gather food.

400f/400w, 45s

Don’t laugh, Tortillas were like flour based bags to carry your rations in. Just eat your carrying case while fighting on the go!

UT 2: Metallurgy - Melee units charge up an attack that deals 5 more damage every 25 seconds. +2 for ranged (+1 for skirms), buildings and galleys and they get attack range +1 range as though you researched another Bracer tech.
Cost: 1250f, 800g

Maybe it’s not expensive enough but to present the punch that these guys were usually ahead weaponwise compared to the rest of Mesoamerica is quite the point I’m trying to get at here. It’s also a major overcompensation for the loss of Elite Eagles. Years ago this effect was simply just Blast Furnace and Bracer but that doesn’t work in today’s Definitive settings

Strategy: You know your window. It’s earlier than later, and it sorta opens up again really late in the game once you have your UT. The power spike is kinda like a canyon, strong early, strong very VERY end game. Early on, Skirm and Spear is a safe combination, enemy depending. Foes who rely on archery strats are going to not like fighting you although Britons can easily outrange your lack of a super fast reliable Elite Eagle eventually. There’s plenty of options from Halbs with extra damage to Arbs and Skirms and of course flooding the map with Xoch archers, but wait, I forgot a ‘unique’ building. Hold on, this is how you push forward!

UB: Toltecatl - An artisan building. Costs 150w/25g has 1200Hp and grants all nearby buildings extra bonus damage resistance and regen. Multiples will not stack up the effect.

So now you know where their late game might comes from. This civ is a slower pushing power that forward builds as they try to gain grounds instead of raiding their way forward.

Best of luck dear Toltecs!


Skirms already beat archers usually, this is way over the top. Even if it was just +1 per age, it’s probably still way to strong.

Broken. Really broken. It lets people just build a massive wall of houses or whatever, and then just move through it without deleting anything. It’s like a Khmer bonus, but really weird. It’s also probably not possible in the current engine very easily, and I’d take less bugs over this civ/bonus anyday.

Pretty useless, considering you only usually need one of those buildings per game, whereas faster techs apply to every tech researched there. This bonus is super weak.

Not really balanced, especially the range. More importantly, better weaponry is a terrible name for the tech, especially when they are an earlier Aztecs, who got wrecked by European invaders. Not historically based in terms of name, and not justified compared to other civs.

So basically it’s a worse Khmer bonus you have to pay for with another effect?

Why? This doesn’t make any sense.

Its just like the Khmer bonus, I dont see how its broken

Hes talking about how they had better weapons than their neighbours. Tbh I would still prefer another name

Its a better Slav farming bonus

Its a bunch of guys throwong rocks, I dont see whats so weird outside of chemistry.

Agree on the skirm thing and on the UT being maybe too much tho

Well by all means let’s make this more balanced, I’m all for collaboration so let’s make it better.

I guess my reputation as a civ crafter/idea maker has lost its luster but I’ll try and win this community’s respect yet. So lets get to it!

Yeah, but the Khmer bonus is only houses, and you have to garrison to use it. This just lets you walk straight through houses, and walls as well. No gates, not quick response times, just villagers that can walk through buildings, which doesn’t even make sense.

I get what he’s talking about, but the problem is, if you try and fit it into a game with all the other stuff, you kind of have to consider the overall world it’s fitting into, where the name doesn’t work. Even still, it needs a rename, better weapons is such a generic name.

It’s a mix of two bonuses you have to pay for.

The name is strange for a start. Then, without siege weapons, how are you going to throw boulders that far? If the Aztecs and stuff don’t get a BBT replacement, I don’t see why an Aztec precursor should.

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I still dont see how its broken (qlthough I dont like it)

Yeah thats fine

Unless it ends up being problematic I see no problem with that. Its what happens with a lot of stuff

Its kinda just fantasy but its not much weirder than Mamelukes

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It’s just a bombard tower with a projectile change not something this game can’t handle with all the weird stuff already in-game.


I feel like I’m probably overdoing the balance thing. It’s mostly that the design just feels off, or wrong, to me, and with lack of a better reason, I’m pinning this on balance.

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Change log: Tortilla is now 20% food if 15 is too weak. Skirms only get +1 vs archers per age but this might not let them handle mass archery as well as their missing elite Eagle compensation would allow.

Better Weaponry renamed Metallurgy. Might change it to be +2 melee attack and an extra ranged smithing tech so an extra bracer and Blast Furnace and this civ still doesn’t get Elite Eagles so hope you don’t need to go mass Casey Age Eagle control.

TB now includes monasteries and rocks and it’s now 2x faster buildspeed. Wall collision effect removed but hopefully this civ can manage to keep up with the other horseless civs.

It’s an interesting concept

The thing is, civs without eagles, just fully upgraded skirms already handle mass archers fine. They only miss elite eagle, which isn’t relevant until Imp, and their skirms have all the techs. Even without this bonus they will be fine again mass archers. They also have all the way up to SO, so they are fine against archer civs.

That name is a lot better. Why not just +1 attack for all units with a faster cooldown, like every 15 seconds or something?

Toltecs would be interesting but they’re not the top of my wishlist for new Amerindian civilizations as would be contemporaries of existing civs (e.g. Tarascans, Chimu). As someone else pointed out, culturally and in other ways they would play similarly to proto-Aztecs and would be less exciting in that regard.

On principle I’m against giving civs bonuses for comparative technological inferiority (compared to Europe/Asia/Africa) in terms of metallurgy, even if they were more advanced in that regard than their neighbors. The fact that some American civs worked in copper and possibly bronze should not give them an advantage over civs that had steel. I get that this isn’t always adhered to (e.g. Aztec Garland wars, not to mention getting blast furnace/plate mail), but let’s lead with the strengths set by precedent, not by the weaknesses and oddities (people will always point to some anomaly/ahistorical unit/tech to justify why their unusual idea is good). Most of the new Amerindian civ idea threads have some variation of “Superior metalworking” tech that gives them some advantage over civs that had steel. Silly.

Sure, but “there is other weird stuff in the game already” is not good justification for inclusion by itself. Reskin of a BBT is boring. Make it different (lower damage/range, faster rate of fire) and/or point to reasons for why Toltecs should get a building like this.

What about a focus on the Toltecs’ reputation for sculpture and craftsmanship? (Even the Aztec word “Toltecatl” refers to a skilled artisan. Incas already have cheaper stone buildings, but Toltecs could have something like “Stone buildings +15% HP”. Perhaps 33% cheaper econ/university techs or 25% cheaper trade carts as well.

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Still unsure about the Skirmisher bonus being broken. If Boulder is removed then this civ needs something to enable it to push as it cannot raid effectively and needs to defensive push under fire.

Always had a problem with this title, since defence serves no win condition, unless you have a wonder or 5 relics. But okay…

I like it, I’d rather make it flat +1 damage, not just against Archers.

Solid. I like minimalistic design. Very AOE II pre DE.

The opposite of minimalism now, quite quirky, in other words you could just make it apply to Wheel Barrow and Hand Cart, unlike the elegant design of the Vikings, this one seems like the ugly twin brother. Reminds me of the awful eco design of the Burgundians. I’d change this one completely.

Quite a weird one, but since it’s a Team Bonus… I guess it’s fine. I just cant see its relevancy but Nomad games, Blacksmith being built faster doesnt even help a FC build since Market takes so long. I’d adjust it, Perhaps Houses are being built 20% faster.

That’s a fascinating one! I like it!

Ranged Karambit that’s proffesionalized at killing siege, that’s actually very nice, elegant design, just 1 damage below Plumed Archer, however, it means a low, 33% less damage to Knights, which is huge.
It’s a 10/10 design.
Considering the awful stats and its one-trick-ponying I’d even consider giving the Elite 6 range instead of 5, same goes for the LOS, make it 9 or 10, it has to have an advantage against Onagers/BBC, 1.1 speed isn’t ideal for that job, and also a MUCH more expensive Elite, 600w 550g is way too cheap.

I’m sorry, this one is not cleaer, either a broken gimmick or perhaps I’m not getting it right.

This is a tricky one, borderline NOT AOE, Urumi is a good example of a poor design we shouldn’t get inspired by. Melee units with a charge attack is basically flat output damage bonus, no other tactical implementations, since melee units and specifically infantry units are almost impossible to micro efficiently. So we’re left with a gimmick that can only be playable once over-the-top OP, just like awful Urumi.

I like it! But it’s not enough, you’d have to justify its uniqueness, in AOE it doesnt take a nice new skin, you need more than that. Perhaps different stats: 70 Damage instead of 120, and Rate of fire 3 instead of 6.
Less overkill than the usual BBT, and more effectiveness and overall damage output.

Thanks for the detailed design man.

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Initially I could not understand it too but what it means is the farmer stays on one tile and gathers rather than move around inside the farm to gather food.Similar to how a forager works.

Focusing on your main issue is with the TC techs sure it’s a weaker Viking bonus but it’s also a bonus to Building LoS and most importantly it’s a discount on Loom saving 30g and 15s. This is a nice bonus although compared to Mayan and Aztec economy bonuses it may pale even if it does better enable early militia aggression.

While the saving amount can’t compare to say Spanish Smithing it does save something far more valuable, time, And at TC which is a building you can never save enough time. While a Feudal Age Viking can save 175f/50w and 75 seconds, he still sinks 50g on Loom. A Toltec admittedly pays 70f/20w and 30s for Wheelbarrow but the 30g saved on Gold hits at a very key spot to give you 1 extra militia in your drush without needing to distance mine for the extra gold. And then you have extra stone for follow up tower aggression and defensively it lets you get Town Watch in 10 seconds for 30f which is never harmful or see more los.

I suppose if it’s too weak I can increase the saved cost and time to 70% but that might be pushing it.

The bonus is actually incredibly simple to code.

@DynasticPlanet5 The problem isn’t just the fact it’s “too weak” but the vulgar design, bonuses should be kept simple and intuitive, either go bold just like what the vikings have or get them something new, the game is beyond just numbers and balance, I get the benefits of scraping some gold and food, but that’s not enough to justify this unconvinient civ bonus, we want a bonus that will define a civ’s identity.

How about: TC tech cost only wood. (Loom 50w, Wheel 225w, Town Watch 75w…)
Or a passive bonus that gives you a new TC tech that can be researched after Loom, that either gives vills extra HP/Armor or some sort of gathering/working rate bonus.
We’re at a point where we can afford new mechanics like Individual-Unique-Techs rather than go out of our minds to give a civ an unique bonus.

I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you’re getting it, maybe it’s your odd way of talking, or the implication that I’m vulgar (even though I used no inappropriate or hateful words) but it could just be a language barrier.

But not EVERY bonus is the second coming of the greatest invention since sliced bread. Sometimes a few savings on a few techs IS the identity. It also is fairly intuitive but maybe your language barrier makes it hard to understand? Perhaps my explanation wasn’t easy to get?

@SirWiedreich As for your thought, I like the idea of a Toltecatl. Maybe a special repairman or a structure that grants building heal and bonus damage reduction to buildings within its radius?

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It’s not a language barrier, it’s just how AllergicTable49 is. They like to flame everyone (Especially the devs), complain about how the game has been ruined, and dislike a lot of civs that are fun to play, on the premise that the civ design is bad.


So sorry! I used Vulgarity in a poetic way refering solely on a certain aspect of a civ design rather than you!!!
Anyways, I like most of the stuff about this civ, well done bro :stuck_out_tongue:

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