Variant Civilisations concept can be solution for Italian civ

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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There were already discussion, how to bring Italian civilisation into ##### ## which medieval Italian state can represent Italians…

With Variant Civilisations, the developers have perfect opportunity here in future expansions

1/ To design “default Italian civilisation” with own mechanics, which would not be used in practice
2/ make variant civilisations from this default italian civ for Venice, Genoa, Sicily or other Italian states

BTW, this is original AoE design concept, compare to other RTS, there is basic default civilisation with acces to all units and techs and no bonuses, which is not used in practice (until player use “all tech” option), and all civs are variants of this “default” civ, with some bonuses and units dissabled

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Honestly, as an italian, i would say no. Each of them would deserve a properly civilization concept, not variants copy and paste. Especially they were very different in way of building, troops, etc… sicily then, at that period with arabs invasions and so on…

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I think, You missunderstand me, I do not want “copy and paste”

These Italian variant civs could have own unique units, unique landmarks to reflect differences between them,

To expect multiple Italian “civilisations” with eachone being mechanically unique like base game civilisations is unrealistic

In different words - there will be 3 new civs - Venezia, Genoa, Sicily with own unique units, techs and landmarks, and sharing same common “italian” mechanics (or units)

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I see your idea and its really nice, the variant concept must be much more deep than what im seeing with the actual variants. Last chinese variants made my eyes bleeding :frowning:

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The issue with the Italian states is they were similar enough to have things in common but different enough to not being appropriately representable with the variant pattern.

At the moment, variants act on bonuses, units and buildings choices, technologies and landmarks. All these elements are necessary but not sufficient. You would also need to change architecture and language in order to represent various Italian States but at that point you’r making a new civ, no longer a variant.

The Devs would have to take the Variant concept a step forward or create a whole new system for them.

That new system could be choosing the State in-match. The civ would be called Italian States, with a few generic bonuses and UUs maybe, shared among all states (or some).
In the Dark Age people speak a vulgar Latin maybe from Rome itself, then when advancing to the Feudal Age you make the actual choice for the State. Every State offers a Landmark, that makes you choose what State you would be playing as for the rest of the game, with their language, architecture, bonuses and UUs.
The novelty would be basically having an in-match Civ selection, even if you see Italian States in the loading screen you wouldn’t actually know what State you will be facing until Feudal.

This has a couple of issues though. The first is that the Devs would have to make essentially 3 or more almost full Civs with only a completely common Dark Age, that would be complex. The second is that things would change a lot in Feudal and all the bonuses must fit the Landmarks selection screen.

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Some of them sure, but in many ways, the English was as similar to the French as the Italian city states were to each other. Frankly Naples/Sicily was very different compared to Venice or the Papal states or Milan.

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What was it that you didn’t like about the Chinese variant civilization?

They are getting 3 new units, all new landmarks, new technologies only available to them and they seem to play differently from Chinese.

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ABOUT THE ITALIAN CIV FOR AOEIV

It can exist, and it must, so that the variants then exist. If the main one does not exist first, it is difficult to think about the variants later. In the case of the Middle Ages, Italy had several city states, practically for Age IV, the Italian civ should also consider what it means to build a city state, with the elements that Italy had at that time:

  • Mercenaries (Condottiero, Broken Lance, Condotta Men-at-arm, German and Norman merc., etc),
  • Technological Renaissance (Many unique technologies)
  • Armed Militia, Captain of the People
  • Walled Cities
  • Towers-house, Palaces, Art Galleries, Universities
  • Italian families and mercenaries (political factions and passive bonuses)
  • Guelphs and Ghibellines Conflict.

At least those elements must be available to represent cities such as Milan, Florence, Pisa, Lucca, and their armies. In case of Wonders, I could suggest the Basilica, representing the Cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiore. Otherwise, they could also have 3: The Cathedral of Pisa (with the Tower of Pisa), and the Cathedral of Milan.

Catedral de Santa María del Fiore (Florencia)
Catedral de Santa María del Fiore (Florencia)1920×1292 359 KB

Milan_Cathedral_from_Piazza_del_Duomo
Milan_Cathedral_from_Piazza_del_Duomo1920×1443 371 KB

Catedral de Pisa y su Torre Campanario
Catedral de Pisa y su Torre Campanario1023×731 136 KB

ABOUT ITALIAN VARIANTS.- Considering that there were some states of present-day Italy that in the Medieval Age were very successful and influential in their time, as well as having territories outside of present-day Italy that made them kingdoms that relied on their own account. Among them:

  • Genova.- Created a mercantile republic with several colonies throughout the Mediterranean, they contributed armies of mercenaries to several European countries, and were successful bankers of the Spanish Empire. I made a concept of them, although with the civ variants, I could do a remake ( The Republic of Genoa: Civilization Concept )

  • Venice.- Created a Thalassocratic republic, colonizing the coasts of the entire Mediterranean Sea, taking advantage of the fact that they were good at recruiting Greek mercenaries. They were great ship engineers, and created several unique designs that kept several foreign fleets away from their coasts and domains. It also has concepts on the forum (The Republic of Venice: Definitive and Improved Version)

Both would have Italian architecture and Italian language, so yes, in theory that would make them civ variants. Also, (now that it is confirmed that it is possible) they would share some unique units, mainly mercenaries: Broken Lance (Mercenary Heavy Cavalry) Men-at-arm Condotta (Heavy Infantry), Condottiero (Acts as a General, like the Khan), or failing that, the Captain of the People.

TO FILL IN, IN CASE THE DEVS NEED COMPLETE THE 6TH CIV IN SOME FUTURE DLC.-

Papal States.- It was the seat of the Catholic Church, the Pope, and the Christian faith. They appear in some Age II campaign scenarios, sometimes represented by Italy, but in theory they could also have their own set of unique units.

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Personally adding Shaolin monks to a civ that is in theory about neo-Confucianism for China feels like an extremely odd choice. I like the amount of content they got, the specific choices feel off for what they are naming/describing the civ as.

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You’re right about Sicily, in fact I wasn’t even thinking about them. I instead think that English and French are less similar than the Italian city-states. Maybe in the first century of Norman England, but then they speak languages of different root… Surely later on differences arise.

Surely the land based city-states shared more between them than maritime republics, thinking about Milan, Florence, Siena, Urbino… Maritime republics like Venice, Genoa, Pisa can be a set of their own.

Anyway, no matter which could be featured, the representation should make them justice. Civ standards are quite high in this game.

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Imo there is no way they just make an Italian civ since they have been making nations over cultures. I would be excited to see a Venice or Naples for example as a civ. They either make other Italian civs variants or semi-unique civs (maybe they share bonuses like the muslim berry bonus)

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I’d rather see Venice as a single civ with its architecture clearly venetian inspired rather than say trying to make a generic Italian ‘base’ and make variants from it

I think variants only work as focused elements of an existing civ like an England focused on Crusaders.

Maybe other people disagree but considering how diverse the Italian area was during this time I’d rather get one focused Italian culture like Venice, Sicily, Genoa etc. Than a selection of Italian states with lots of kitbashed units and reused assets like the variants seem to be.

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I dont like the original concept of the variants. Wanna give monks? Just add new landmarks… hre look so poor compares to other civs, for example. And yea generally speakint is not appealing to me. Why should i play the original, when now i can get units early. And so on…

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I’d argue an Italian Civ shouldn’t exist, because it would be too generic both for the standards of the game and for making the Italian States “justice”. The idea is cool though, don’t get me wrong. I prefer mine though :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: .

Genoa and Venice especially can’t be variants, they have their own language and the Venetian architecture is quite distinctive.

I think the same, only would exclude the use of variants as we know them now.

Indeed… If I had to choose only one I’d pick Venice, I made a topic about it. Italian states can’t be variants of each other but Italian states could have variants, for example the Republic of Ragusa as a Venetian variant…

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The variants in general are drastically different civs. Ayyubids for example are an aggressive cavalry civ vs the Abbasids being a booming infantry civ.

HRE is so boring in general because they have (in my opinion) way too much power invested into their landmarks such that the civ can’t have other nice things.

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Drastically different civs. I stop here reading. Sorry mate

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Gameplay and strategy wise, the Rus are more similar to the French than Zhu Xi is to Chinese or Ayyubids to Abbasids.

I don’t want to comment on Jeanne since we don’t know if she still gets age 2 knights (or royal knights at all for that matter)

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I did not know that Genoa and Venice developed their own dialect. How isolated the Italian city states must have been to vary even in language.

Regardless of whether some Italian civ can be considered a variant or not, for sharing, say, some mercenary units (Condotta units, Condottier), or mechanics, even if they do not share architecture and dialect, I think that both Genoa and Venice can serve as New Civs in their right. At least I think they could even have a Campaign, and enough unique units to differentiate themselves from other civs.

Now, in the case of Civ for Italy (to represent the city states and Duchies of Florence, Milan, Lucca, etc.), I had an Italian Civ concept, but I never revealed it because I suddenly got excited about the Japanese, and then an Aztec concept, both of which are already on the forum. Maybe I’ll take it up again, but then I’ll never finish my Timurid concept, or my Nordic concept of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Maybe, after the DLC release, when the hype for the new civs were gone.

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Italy had tons of different dialects and cultures. One of the major theories actually of why many Italians gesticulate so much when they are speaking is because the of the very diverse dialects throughout Italy that gesturing with their hands helped convey meaning.

Italian civs could stretch the line between civ and variant. Afterall, Zhu Xi is really only connected with China in voice lines, unit/architecture assets and a couple of the unique units (and maybe some bonuses, but unsure)

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There are a lot of different languages in Italy, some are extremely different from each other. Venice, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, Milan, Florence, Genoa, Rome… they used to speak different tongues.

Surely they could have things in common though, like the mercenaries, some other base units or bonus.

:laughing:

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