Viet need change or small bonus

[NarrowBubbles54]

@NastyHigh

Imperial Skirmisher doesn’t need buffing, they’re already a strong unit in the late game, especially when gold runs out. If you want to distinguish them from Rattans, then change Rattans, not skirms. They’re not useless like Genitours, because there’s no situation where you’d choose Genitours instead of elite skirms or Camel Archers. Nobody uses Genitours. Whereas imperial skirms are very commonly part of a Vietnamese late game army.

But same rattan upgrade quite expensive, compare with other UT mayan, azztec .v.v.v. very

[FearfulSugar350]

yeah, this is actually neat, make the Viet consistent with the Burgandians

[EvilPanda494]

This is pretty much what i also propose earlier so i second that

[AllergicTable49]

@FearfulSugar350

Free conscription is really weak

That’s true.

@FearfulSugar350

Their elephants are supposed to be meat shield

Is that so? I dont think AOE II has this concept of “meat shield” but Hussar spam.
If we give them free Elite there must be a catch then, no bonus HP to begin with.

@FearfulSugar350

It’s actually a very solid eco bonus, a lot of high ranking players agree with it. I’m no pro, but I have to say their eco is very smooth.

It makes your build order a smooth, not your eco, it’s too minor to have a meaningful impact or rather to be even considered an eco bonus. Devs ran out of ideas pretty much. Eco involved bonus doesn’t necessarily mean it’s an eco bonus, considering we have so much strong eco civs we have to use this term more carefully. One thing for sure- Vietnamese “eco” bonus doesn’t allow versatility, you’re forced to invest into those eco techs to utilize the discount (which is just wood, the least precious res in the game), very limiting when you want to Fast Imp, or just 1TC push.

@FearfulSugar350

The new UT you suggest is ok ish, but most people hate 1 time use UT after they released Burgandians and Sicilians . Let the trend of 1 time use UT die out for good.
My solution would be a new UT called “rapid advance” which increases movement speed for foot archers and skirms by 15% (this is historically accurate and make their archer play feel better and less generic)

I totally agree with you, one time use techs are less AOE, not ideal for sure, BUT, since they’re here to stay, sadly, we should at least have better ones.
I love the idea of fast moving Archers, however it cant be implemented within the realm of Vietnamese, since they already have the Rattan, you dont want to Rattanize their generic Arbalester, or you’d end up with the Longbow syndrome, when we’re at a point where there is no really reason to create Longbows, Brit Arbs does almost the same.

[FurtherLime7936]

@FearfulSugar350

• Free conscription is really weak, it may as well not be a bonus at all in Imperial age. My solution would be either elite BE’s upgrade is free or halve its upgrade cost as civ bonus. Their elephants are supposed to be meat shield yet so ridiculously expensive to upgrade to be useful in imp.

Good way to make them Insanely OP for TGs.
Anyway if free conscription is weak just replace it with Castle technologies costing 33% less.
And are Vietnamese in need of a buff? Hera rated them either in the A or B tier for land maps, and they are commonly picked for tournaments.

[JokerPenguin593]

@FurtherLime7936

Anyway if free conscription is weak just replace it with Castle technologies costing 33% less.

Wait, no, this is worse than free conscription. First at all you will need time (and a castle) to resesrch conscriptio. Which is the biggest advantage of having it for free.

Besides, conscription is the most important and cheap castle tech. Sappers and hoardings are more expensive but less important. So vietnamese wouldnt save a lot of resources while tesearching the important tech.

And I assumed you didnt include spies/treason as part of your proposal… having those tech discounted fit the vietnamese knowingTC bonus, although probably they wouldnt be researched a lot either even with 33%discount.

If you meant to implement a castle tech discount, I would rise it to 50%. But I still would prefer free conscription, because of the researching time issue.

I proposed above to give them free sappers as well but maybe the way to improve this little imperial powespike is with free hoardings together free conscription. Enjoy castle drops and treb wars.

[Sylux1000]

@MatCauthon3

Reduce paper money cost and remove the gold portion for wood

This is the exact change the tech needs.

[NastyHigh]

@JokerPenguin593

Even without reducing the cost or swapping both UTs, replacing the gold portion for wood would be a nice buff in a lot of situations whem wood and food is abundant but gold is not

Yeah any eco tech which costs gold to make gold is BS

[FearfulSugar350]

@FurtherLime7936

@FearfulSugar350

• Free conscription is really weak, it may as well not be a bonus at all in Imperial age. My solution would be either elite BE’s upgrade is free or halve its upgrade cost as civ bonus. Their elephants are supposed to be meat shield yet so ridiculously expensive to upgrade to be useful in imp.

Good way to make them Insanely OP for TGs.
Anyway if free conscription is weak just replace it with Castle technologies costing 33% less.
And are Vietnamese in need of a buff? Hera rated them either in the A or B tier for land maps, and they are commonly picked for tournaments.

Well maybe not free BE upgrade, but half the upgrade cost as I mentioned before. Also, If you read the post I replied to, there is a catch that they will lose chartras but their 20% bonus hp will expand to battle elephants as well. Basically roughly half chartras strength but free.

Will it OP in team game? idk really, it needs to be tested but their elephants ain’t great to begin with anyway.

As for Hera’s ranking, Viet is solid pick for Pro players like him with insane mirco, I remember Viper also said something like the Viet is good for pro players, which is only a very small portion of player base, and bad for casual or mid level players who most of the time can’t micro properly.

[FurtherLime7936]

@FearfulSugar350

Well maybe not free BE upgrade, but half the upgrade cost as I mentioned before.

There’s a reason why the Elite Battle Elephant upgrade had to be increased, you get the power of the Elite Upgrade way sooner than Paladin (which has to go into cavalier too), which is super key for TGs, and at some point before DE, Battle elephants were overall too strong for TGs.

@FearfulSugar350

As for Hera’s ranking, Viet is solid pick for Pro players like him with insane mirco, I remember Viper also said something like the Viet is good for pro players, which is only a very small portion of player base, and bad for casual or mid level players who most of the time can’t micro properly.

And? I mean at lowe levels/casual play, people usually don’t win because of civs most of the time, but mostly because the one who wins is the one that outplays the other player because of skill (which has a huge gap at lower ELO).
And that’s why Chinese is OP but at lower levels isn’t showed, also that’s why Tatars were nerfed despite being underwhelming at lower ELO.

[FearfulSugar350]

@FurtherLime7936

There’s a reason why the Elite Battle Elephant upgrade had to be increased, you get the power of the Elite Upgrade way sooner than Paladin (which has to go into cavalier too), which is super key for TGs, and at some point before DE, Battle elephants were overall too strong for TGs.

And? I mean at lowe levels/casual play, people usually don’t win because of civs most of the time, but mostly because the one who wins is the one that outplays the other player because of skill (which has a huge gap at lower ELO).
And that’s why Chinese is OP but at lower levels isn’t showed, also that’s why Tatars were nerfed despite being underwhelming at lower ELO.

The number of people who are on Viper and Hera level are either extremely rare or very very small portion of the entire player base. A weaker civ (The Viet in this case) is having a lot of design flaws, just because these players make them looks OP doesn’t mean the civ itself is good, well designed or well balanced. Battle Elephants in general are still gimmick and most of the time, no one builds them. Even in team game, Paladins and arbs are still kings.

Let’s say 2 people on the same level of Hera/Viper compete each other, one pick Frank/Aztec and the other pick Vietnamese, guess who has the higher chance to win?

[ZeroEinna]

If I see Franks, I am going Cavalry Archer. If I survive the feudal attacks in good order, I will win. You do not have to be 2000 elo+ to realize this is the response but dealing with Feudal well is everything.

[JokerPenguin593]

On thing I have noticed is that most civs that have a “free tech bonus” use to have 2 free techs in different ages.

The only exceptions are ethiopians (free pikemen
only but also had free halberdier upgrade before), slavs (free supplies only) and teutons (free murderholes and herbal medicine are from the same age)

What free tech would you give to vietnamese to complement the free conscription bonus and their civ identity? Free treasmill crane? It is perfhaps too spanish_like, but it would help them to start their 3 TC + monastery boom or to build a university for ballistics a bit sooner. Besides, the tech is about making things faster, like conscription.

@ZeroEinna

If I see Franks, I am going Cavalry Archer. If I survive the feudal attacks in good order, I will win.

Hera said in his last tierlist that vietnamese have amazin cav archers against cav civs.

One question, would this also apply to koreans? Their cav archers are worde but much cheaper to upgrade.

@FurtherLime7936

And? I mean at lowe levels/casual play, people usually don’t win because of civs most of the time, but mostly because the one who wins is the one that outplays the other player because of skill (which has a huge gap at lower ELO).

Well, in case of low elo frank players, I would say that the civ helps them to outplay the oponent because it makes easier to pull on strategies that low elo players dont know how to defend against well (early scout rush, knight rush, castle drop)

[ZeroEinna]

Cavalry Archers are a viable counter to heavy cavalry play, but Korean Cavalry Archer play is much less forgiving than Vietnamese play.

[NarrowBubbles54]

@JokerPenguin593

One question, would this also apply to koreans? Their cav archers are worde but much cheaper to upgrade

Viet I don’t know but look turk they get it, and korean don’t want to see wargon become the demon of many thing .

[JokerPenguin593]

@NarrowBubbles54

Viet I don’t know but look turk they get it, and korean

I am not a turk player, so I have not an opinion, but they have auto upgraded light cav and extra gold for monks cav/archers against franks (although they lack pikemen). I was asking for koreans because I feel they play very similar to vietnamese in the early game thanks to he free armor upgrade. However, against franks, I hadn’t tried korean cav archers because they lack bloodlines, even when they are cheaper and with 2 free armor techs. I had to try them now. War wagon is too hard to get against franks in Arabia and they die against knights in low numbers, in my experience at low elo.
I haven’t tried vietnamese cav archers against franks either, but I can beat franks with vietnamese through early pressure and keep raiding them with light cav or archers, transitioning into what is needed. It doesn’t always have to be a success, but sometimes it works for me. But not with koreans.

[NarrowBubbles54]

Yes, but nomad or arena wargon is choice not bad, and I want to see ca of Korea like Viet, but wargon except it ca ok

[Davyman3583]

@JokerPenguin593

One question, would this also apply to koreans? Their cav archers are worde but much cheaper to upgrade.

It’s actually a decent unit choice here. I had that matchup recently and it worked pretty well. They don’t have bloodlines but free armor kinda makes up for that. And they cost less wood. In the end I made ca from only 2 ranges to boom behind and go arb halb in imp.

[NarrowBubbles54]

But I still want delete frame delay shoot . CA no parthian it not work good, Korean too

[JokerPenguin593]

CA without partian tactics can work against certain oponents. Mostly, against civ with bad archers, like franks, like Hera suggested in his video. The reason I asked about joreans is because their cav archers ressemble the vietnamese ones in early castle age althlugj they lack bloodlines too. I wouldnt aim for imperial korean cav archers ever.

I have tried rattan archers against franks and that was a disaster. They are good against arrows not against tanky knights. Cav archers seem better for that if you want mobility (elephants too slow)