Viet need change or small bonus

We’ve had this debate quite a few times, I must admit even after reading all the messages in this thread my opinion hasn’t changed much:

Vietnamese’s weaknesses come from the fact that they have a weak-middling eco bonus and only weak military bonuses. Their “anti archer” identity is only realised very briefly at the very start of feudal (where the numbers are low enough that the hp bonus matters) and from early imp (when rattens start rolling out). In feudal & castle age they are realistically just a generic archer civ with nothing really going for them.

This is reflected in the stats that show that their biggest weakness is late feudal/early castle which is when they have their highest loss rate (well below average).

Personally I think we should either double down on their anti archer identity giving them a meaningful bonus for castle age (like free or discounted e-skirm) or give them some other form of power spike in castle age to help fend off Knight civs.

I don’t think they need huge changes though, just a few gentle nudges. (Having conscription apply at a reduced % in castle age is still my favourite).

Alternatively a rework of elephants to make them more viable in 1v1s would also acheive the same thing though I doubt this will ever happen at this point.

Edit: also please remove the gold cost on paper money :frowning:

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Good analysis. I think they feel bland because developers doesnt want to push civs with wide tech trees too much.

Compared with other cics with flexible tech trees and low eco bonus, their identity is a bit bland. Lets see:

  • Byzantines focus in defense (buildings and cheap counters. They lack impoetant imperial techs, but they reach imperial age sooner
  • Sarracens adapt to whatever it is needed thanks to their market
  • Chinese adapt through good eco and discounts
  • Italians have also cheaper techs and age ups, and their UT and UUs can counter cavalry or archers. Also, cheap gunpowder. In this regard they feel like vietnamese until castle age but at least they are better in water and hybrid maps.
  • Spanish faster building is a flexible bonus, good for walling, trushing or build the buildings you nees. This, combined with blacksmith discount and full upgraded trash, make them very flexible in late game (although this is overshadowed by conquistador).
  • Portuguese have cheap gold army, cheap monks, and feitorias for everlastint lategame
  • Magyar have better scout rush for pushing and advantage in open maps (in close maps is different)
  • Malians are flexible until imperial age when they start to lack upgrades. But until then they have a solid m@a and flexible eco bonus

Spanish lack crossbow and sarracens lack cavalier but I would say they are flexible). I could include hindustanis as well.

Compared to these civs, vietnamese eco bonus is soft (and you almost use the wood discount if you go fast castle), their archer bonus is soft and their imperial powerspike is soft. Soft, although nice. People sometimes complain about portuguese feeling bland but at least in imperial age you can feel powerful. This is the same for them.

Yes, something like that would be perfect in most situations

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But that’s not due to the civ being weak at that point it is rather that you usually boom with vietnanese in early castle age. If you do that vietnamese eco bonus is actually pretty strong as save a lot of wood to quickly add tcs and farms. However if you boom you basically sacrifice map control for eco advantage so it’s natural that their win rate is lower at that point.

My 2 cent. I’m an average 1,2-1,3k elo and play almost exclusevely with Viets in open maps. I find them quite versatile if you can use their bonus properly. Otherwise, they are average or below.

Reveal enemy positions at game start.

This could be considered an eco bonus in 2 situations:

  1. if you lame
  2. if you push all the deers
    The 2nd option delays the building of farms, so helps save wood. Adding it to the proper eco bonus, you can afford a quicker transition to archers in a M@A opening.
    Anyway, to push deer you have to delay your scouting, you don’t know what your opponent is doing. I call it “The Blind Date” strategy :smiley:

In team game, is quite awful to signal every enemy location to allies, especcially in the start when player of my elo may struggle a little bit.
Could be a good idea to swap this with the team bonus.

Archery Range units have +20% HP.

This is quite understimated. It’s not a massive bonus (like Britons or Mayans) but can help to sustain damage, even from mangonels. It makes Cavalry Archer very tanky.
Maybe it could be a flat bonus, not in percentage. Like +10hp. This would make it more useful for feudal and castle archers and skirm. Doing so, CA would have a less great bonus.
I wonder what would happens if Viets have access to Elephant Archers. :slight_smile:
Maybe with a bonus like this and Chatras affecting EA as well, could be an option to have extra tanky archers.

Conscription is free.

Useful. This is ok.

Economic upgrades cost no wood.

Not the greatest eco bonus in the game, but it synergizes well with archers rush builds. I would keep it.

Team bonus: Imperial Skirmisher available at the Archery Range.

Imperial Skirms are a good option in 1vs1, but tends to be less used in team games due to trade bringing gold. So swapping it with the enemy position revealing bonus could be useful. And maybe make them avaible to other civs.

I tend not to use elephants since they are quite weak vs monks and Viets have no access to Heresy. The HP bonus given by Chatras is not that helpful for a unit thas already has so may HP. If Viet had access to Elephant Archers and this tech apply to them…it could change my mind, but maybe would be too OP and should be nerfed a bit.

Paper Money rework is potentially a good idea, but its cost make it not worth in an actual game. Should be reduced and maybe this UT should be put in the castle age

HP bonus is significant at any stage in Archer vs Archer situation especially, and can help vs melee units as well, as they tank 1 more hit from KTS in Castle age. They can also tank a mangonels shot in Castle so they definitely feel different than other Archer at any stage, and for their HCA is basically a free bloodlines on top of bloodlines

and their abti-archer identity is given by the rattan yes but also by the Imperial skirmisher, which is such a lovely unit that should be a regular Imperial upgrade for skirmishers

Wanna look at a civ with generic Archers for most of the game and that only have a bonus that is actually weaker than vietnamese free HP? Meet the Italians

You missed the third option in between these two: start the match, pick your initial 4 sheep (use them to scout your surroundings), and send the scout to quickly explore enemy surroundings. Then come back and push 1 or 2 deer. If you meet some enemy sheep in the way, great, but the main goal of this is to find their main gold and berries and see if his map is wallable or not. This way you can adjust your build order soon to a scout rush or tower rush, which usually surprisenthe enemy when they are expectint m@a into archers. You obtain 2 deer as a little advantage (less than in your blind_date rush) but your first rush will hit in the nail)

Although this require so much scout management that I often get housed…

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[quote=“JokerPenguin593, post:80, topic:203162”]
have tried rattan archers against franks and that was a disaster. They are good against arrows not against tanky knights. Cav archers seem better for that if you want mobility (elephants too slow)
No cannot use rattan for knight, accher line too just eque with other archer because cost and thing it do not compare with other archer special with UU archer

But I thing need reduce cost upgrade it :rofl:, when use it hard for use other unit. Ellite is 230w. 130g but for imperial need 450g @@. My thing reduce imper skir cost upgrade and delay frame of rattan is good​:relaxed::relaxed::relaxed:

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all trash units last upgrade is grossly overpriced on paper on the gold part probably because they are never going to cost you gold past that upgrade and having FU trash in a trash fight is a huge deal, so halbs, hussar, and imperial skirmisher are all very worth it upgrades

in all honesty, i think imperial skirmisher should be just a regular upgrade for skirmisher and vietnamese should get a new TB

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yeah, imp skirm should have just been generic upgrade for everyone like Halberdiers. Would be cool if the Viet had Imp arbalest instead.

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:rofl::rofl: Change skirmish more ok, imper arbales not available

Make the marked enemy locations the TB and if you want make their imperial UT affect the whole team

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What about Skirmisher upgrades cost no gold?

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This impossible and unbalance game

I don’t mean as a TB, just as a civ bonus. Why would that be impossible?

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That was proposed with wood instead of gold, and in that case the savings from elite skirm would ve higher than the whole wood eco discount in castle age.

With gold discount the situation would be very similar, with major discounts in imperial.

Another reason is that they dont need cheaper skirm upgrades because their archers and skirms already deal with enemy archers nicely. They need a buff in other department, if any.
I am with @coolios9876 about helping them to spam units a bit faster in castle age, either with a minipseudo conscription bonus or either with free treadmill crane

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I think it will be more use for they, concripsion in castle better for imperial age. Or treadmill but berber get +10% speed :)). Need something different with bonus of other civil. Many thing had said by member same with other civil bonus

  • Add other team bonuses which reveals the opponents’ first TC or/and provides free Conscription.
  • Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade, similar to the free Pikeman upgrade for Ethiopians.
  • Make ALL techs cost no wood or 50% wood.
  • Paper Money costs food instead of gold, and also provides some golds to the team members again, which lets it able to be the emergency button again while keeping the current effect.

One or some of them could be good enough.

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Berber speed is for walking, not for building.
Spanish are the civ with faster builders

And still, bohemiams have the bonus of fervor affecting villagers, which is better than berber but has to be researched.

Even free conscription could be compared with aztecs training bonus. Most ideas are already covered and some overlapping is unoavoidable, like magiar/berber scout discount or turks/tatar scouts pierce armor

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No need to care about overlap when there is literally nothing to do because Vietnamese are fine and this thread is based on the (false) opinion that they are a bad civ.

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