Not only that Korea give the Japanese a “Rival” faction to play against. The Japanese are based on the armies that invaded Korea and the aftermath after all. Both were hermit kingdoms through most of the aoe3 timeline.
that is pretty true of at least several existing civs. Korea would be a highly logical choice for an asian expansion - but i think we’re just getting more euros.
I think it is totally fine to want ones own faction, including Korea.
I just don’t like that people sometimes argue things that are false in an attempt to make the civ be more interesting than it is because if they can’t use the words “great power” or “empire” they feel the civ doesn’t deserve to be in the game. Sure being a great power is IMO a bonus, but its not the end all and be all.
Korea wasn’t an empire, that doesn’t mean you cant make a Korean civ and have it be interesting.
True, i don’t mind people wanting Korea, but it still does not make it an empire
I think it’s a bit of pushback against the Chinese propaganda that portrays Korea as too insignificant and pathetic to be worthy of inclusion. They’re sandwiched between the Chinese and Japanese empires. Like where are they supposed to expand to? It would be suicidal to do anything other than try to maintain the peace which is what they did.
That’s a fair take and I agree - Korea wasn’t an empire
TBH, since AOEII, civs being empires wasn’t a given, which is funny considering the name! I think in this iteration, though Euro-centric, the biggest empires are already in the game, so anything else that comes in via DLC just needs to tick the incredibly broad box of ‘interacting with one of the empires’, for example Malta wasn’t an empire or a big player, though it defended against an empire, USA revolted from an empire and the in-game Revolutions are some sort of reaction to Empire etc. For potenial civs, Persia was an empire/regional power and fought against other empires and the Koreans were either fighting, allied to or became tributary under Empires.
Empire is not defined by the title of a monarch or even the existence of a monarch, it is defined by controlling (significant) territory and people not part of your core culture. France in 1900 was an empire despite not having a monarch because the French colonial empire existed.
Korea not having any significant territory held with non Koreans therefore does not qualify as an empire.
by that definition modern Japan is an empire, which spoiler modern Japan is a nation-state.
the title of the monarch, or the state, has no baring of whether a state is an empire or not. Korea would fall into the category of a nation, with only 1 people.
I guess Joseon Korea’s flag had plenty of red in it. Huh.
The period covered by AoE3 was also really when “Korean” started becoming a notion of a cultural, linguistic, civic identity separate from both whoever was in charge on the peninsula, and separate from the Sinosphere more broadly.
Having things like the Monastery, some HC cards, wonders, etc. give the devs an opportunity to showcase the sweeping societal changes that occurred in Korea from the late 1500s onwards as the visual arts, literature, academic discourse, natural sciences, and agricultural productivity (though pointedly NOT a European-like market economy) began flowering.
It’s not just the visuals and units that I and some others have dug up (many of which, I will admit, are low key kinda generic) that would help give the civ identity.
well, Korea may have an advantage in terms of potential sales of DLC, but in terms of history and features, Korea may not be as dazzling as Siam and Vietnam.
Exactly, I would also add that it is a historical civ of the saga since 1997 and that many in Korea play RTS… I mean “hello, I need to say it” (it’s even strange that they didn’t include them as a civ in TAD in 2007)…
Yes, Malta is here, literally any civ can enter the game, even Byzantines or Mamluks xd…
Of course, in fact the Koreans appear in the Japanese invasions campaign of The Asian Dynasties mobile (although they were using the Chinese)…
Yes, I would save them for a DLC with the Vietnamese…
Of course, let’s remember that between 1592 and 1598 they were invaded by the Japanese and between 1627 and 1637 by the Manchu Chinese…they could not expand because in fact they were on the defensive…they were only able to be an empire after the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) in 1897 until they were definitively conquered by the Japanese in 1910 until the end of the Second World War…
An empire is a political unit made up of several territories and peoples, “usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries”.[1] The center of the empire (sometimes referred to as the metropole) exercises political control over the peripheries.[2] Within an empire, different populations have different sets of rights and are governed differently.[3] Narrowly defined, an empire is a sovereign state whose head of state is an emperor or empress; but not all states with aggregate territory under the rule of supreme authorities are called empires or are ruled by an emperor; nor have all self-described empires been accepted as such by contemporaries and historians (the Central African Empire, and some Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in early England being examples).
However, sometimes an empire is only a semantic construction, such as when a ruler assumes the title of “emperor”.[13][14][15][16] That polity over which the ruler reigns logically becomes an “empire”, despite having no additional territory or hegemony. Examples of this form of empire are the Central African Empire, Mexican Empire, or the Korean Empire proclaimed in 1897 when Korea, far from gaining new territory, was on the verge of being annexed by the Empire of Japan, one of the last to use the name officially. Among the last states in the 20th century known as empires in this sense were the Central African Empire, Ethiopia, Vietnam, Manchukuo, Russia, Germany, and Korea.
Scholars distinguish empires from nation-states.[17][18][19] In an empire, there is a hierarchy whereby one group of people (usually, the metropole) has command over other groups of people, and there is a hierarchy of rights and prestige for different groups of people.[20]Josep Colomer distinguished between empires and nation-states in the following way:
Empires were vastly larger than states
Empires lacked fixed or permanent boundaries whereas a state had fixed boundaries
Empires had a “compound of diverse groups and territorial units with asymmetric links with the center” whereas a state had “supreme authority over a territory and population”
Empires had multi-level, overlapping jurisdictions whereas a state sought monopoly and homogenization
Good point, but remember that in the game we have civs that are not and never were empires per se (United States, Hausa and Malta despite having colonies in the Caribbean)…
Sure, in AoE 1 you have Choson but it doesn’t change much from the other Asian civs, in AoE 2 you have the Koreans but they are based on those from the Imjin Wars (Yi-Sun-sin and turtle ships)… and in AoE 3 you have to continue what happens after this…besides, with the cards you can cover other events of the Joseon era (creation of Hangul Korean alphabet in 1443, the Sayuksin in 1456, the literary purges between 1498 and 1545) (Yi’s grandfather was a victim of the third literary purge in 1519 and the Yi’s father had some problems in this event) (although there were other political purges after the Imjin Wars between 1613 and 1839), the Jeong Yeo-rip rebellion in 1589 (the bloodiest purge in Korean history and immediately prior to the Imjin Wars), the Manchu invasions between 1627 and 1637 and from there, taking advantage of the fact that Japan was isolating itself, Korean isolationism was also imposed until 1863… and from there the French (1866), American (1871), British (1885) interventions occurred, the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) and the proclamation of the Korean Empire (1897-1910)…
The Joseon period under the reign of Sejong the Great was Korea’s greatest period of scientific advancement. Under Sejong’s new policy, Cheonmin (low-status) people such as Jang Yeong-sil were allowed to work for the government. At a young age, Jang displayed talent as an inventor and engineer, creating machines to facilitate agricultural work. These included supervising the building of aqueducts and canals.
Some of his inventions were an automated (self-striking) water clock (the Jagyeokru) which worked by activating motions of wooden figures to indicate time visually (invented in 1434 by Jang), a subsequent more complicated water-clock with additional astronomical devices, and an improved model of the previous metal movable printing type created in the Goryeo Dynasty. The new model was of even higher quality and was twice as fast. Other inventions were the sight glass, and the udometer.
The highpoint of Korean astronomy was during the Joseon period, where men such as Jang created devices such as celestial globes which indicated the positions of the sun, moon, and the stars.[143] Later celestial globes (Gyupyo, 규표) were attuned to the seasonal variations.
The apex of astronomical and calendarial advances under King Sejong was the Chiljeongsan, which compiled computations of the courses of the seven heavenly objects (five visible planets, the sun, and moon), developed in 1442. This work made it possible for scientists to calculate and accurately predict all the major heavenly phenomena, such as solar eclipses and other stellar movements.[144]Honcheonsigye is an astronomical clock created by Song I-yeong in 1669. The clock has an armillary sphere with a diameter of 40 cm. The sphere is activated by a working clock mechanism, showing the position of celestial objects at any given time.
Gangnido, a Korean-made map of the world was created in 1402 by Kim Sa-hyeong [ko], Yi Mu [ko], and ### ############################################################################# [ko]. The map was created in the second year of the reign of Taejong of Joseon. The map was made by combining Chinese, Korean and Japanese maps.
The scientific and technological advance in the late Joseon period was less progressed than the early Joseon period.
16th-century court physician, Heo Jun wrote a number of medical texts, his most significant achievement being Dongui Bogam, which is often noted as the defining text of Traditional Korean medicine. The work spread to China and Japan, where it is still regarded as one of the classics of Oriental medicine today.
The first soft ballistic vest, myeonjebaegab, was invented in Joseon Korea in the 1860s shortly after the French campaign against Korea. Heungseon Daewongun ordered development of bulletproof armor because of increasing threats from Western armies. Kim Gi-du and Gang Yun found that cotton could protect against bullets if thick enough, and devised bullet-proof vests made of 30 layers of cotton. The vests were used in battle during the United States expedition to Korea (1871), when the US Navy attacked Ganghwa Island in 1871. The US Army captured one of the vests and took it to the US, where it was stored at the Smithsonian Museum until 2007. The vest has since been sent back to Korea and is currently on display to the public.
Of course, that’s why I would divide a Burma and Siam dlc (The Warriors Rajas aka Rise of Rajas 2.0) on the one hand and Vietnam-Korea (The Asian Tigers or The Neighbors of China xd) on the other…
I would like to add some more information about Korea at the time period of AoE3:
The Chinese tributary system was actually a disguised trade system; Because the Chinese considered themselves the superior civilization and the center of the world, in order to trade with China, other countries were required to recognize their superiority as a nation, so in China it was understood that countries gave “tribute” and in exchange the Chinese gave “gifts”, which in practice functioned as a normal commercial exchange. These countries were also considered allies of China, and maintained their autonomy. So the Qing dynasty of China viewed the Joseon dynasty of Korea as an autonomous vassal state, it was not a colony or dependency of China. This is why some authors consider that talking about “tributary system” or “vassal state” is a poor translation that does not correctly represent China’s relationship with its neighboring countries.
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC REGARDING KOREA THAT MANY FAIL TO UNDERSTAND, I have already read too many people criticizing the inclusion of Korea in the game arguing that it was just a vassal tributary state, and almost no one speaks correctly about this issue.
Regarding the Imjin War, the Koreans turned out to be weak on the battlefields (at least at the beginning, before the arrival of their Chinese allies), mediocre in the defense of cities and fortifications, but very successful in naval and guerrilla warfare, where they considerably ruined Japanese supplies, reinforcements, logistics, and morale. The Chinese rescue army arrived in Korea more than a year after the war began, this because the Korean authorities at first did not want to ask the Chinese for help so as not to be in debt to them. The Chinese army was also not considerably large compared to the Japanese (the Ming army was 100,000 soldiers in total, when the Japanese army was 300,000 in total), and the Ming army was merged with the remnants of the Joseon army to form an army as a whole, where the majority of the soldiers were Korean. They could hardly have expelled the Japanese if it were not for the Korean navy, which brilliantly won most of the naval battles, and the Korean guerrillas (Righteous armies) who cut off Japanese supply lines, making the war unviable and forcing them to retreat.
Regarding the Qing Dynasty’s invasion of Korea, the Joseon Dynasty managed to defend itself against the Qing/Manchus/Jurchens for hundreds of years until the Qing finally defeated the Koreans in 1637 (which occurred after the fall of the Ming dynasty in China, also a product of the Qing invasion), and this meant that the Joseon went from trading/tributing with the Ming dynasty to the Qing dynasty, without the Koreans losing their autonomy.
I decided to write all this because I have learned a lot about the subject, and I am already tired of reading so much ignorance regarding the Joseon dynasty in this forum, the Chinese tributary system and the Imjin War, only those who have properly researched the subject should give their opinion on the matter.
Yes, it doesn’t really matter whether a playable faction is an “empire” in the dictionary sense. It is questionable whether the North American Natives can even be called “State”, but they are implemented as the Regular Civs.
It may seem contradictory considering the game’s title, “Age of Empires,” but the emphasis is placed on the word “Age”, and not all factions need to be Empires. And I think that’s why each faction is officially called “Civilization” instead of “Empire”.
That’s right. It may seem more conspicuous because the Chosŏn dynasty pursued isolationism outside of the tributary trade, but in fact, most of the countries in the Far East at the time paid tribute to China. If Korea were to be seen as just a vassal state, most countries in eastern Asia would be vassal states of China.
Such phenomenon was possible because the “Chinese-style tributary system” was a system that only recognized superiority and inferiority on the surface, but did not dispute substantive hierarchical relationships.
There were even merchants who tried to create a “bogus state” and pay tribute because they could gain economic benefits just by recognizing the superiority of the Chinese Empire.
The fall of the Ming occurred in 1644 by the Shun dynasty, which lasted until 1646 when they fled to the Southern Ming until in 1662 Koxinga defeated the Dutch in Taiwan and created the Ming kingdom of Tungning until it was finally defeated in 1683 during the reign of Kangxi…
Exactly, it’s not so much the empires, states or civilizations of the game but the historical period in which the game takes place…
Yes, let’s say that when Japan was isolated in 1615 after the siege of Osaka, that allowed the Qinq to expand without limits throughout East Asia, quasi-annexing Korea and annexing the Uighur khanates that still remained in Central Asia… the only ones that resisted their military advances were the Russians to the north and Burma and Siam to the south…
You are right about this, I made this mistake by writing from my memory. The point I want to make is that the Ming dynasty had suffered a series of defeats and was in the process of collapsing decades before the Joseon was defeated by the Qing, and that the Ming were also defeated by the Qing.