Hey am 99% tg player only - Played CoH2 and hit rank1 with all factions more than I count in 3v3/4v4s mode.
I am (was) in contact with community patchers and we disscus balance issues of top levels very often.
Now I try to climb up trough tg in AoE IV as well and right now I should be in top 0,5% of playerbase in both modes.
Now I am gonna write summa summarum of current issues of team-games modes bellow.
(For all who will argue with words like: Balance should be ONLY about 1v1 - Oh hell no. More than 50% of players are tg players ONLY and if u wanna lose such a huge part of community than okay - just keep in this order. - we all want higher numbers so the game will stay alive as long as possible).
GAME-BREAKING ISSUES
99% of this was thank God fixed with last patch. Now I can only point out probably Mongol-ovoo issue but its really minor problem in compare with huge exploits like relics/market/stone walls etc. etc.
MAJOR BALANCE ISSUES
I would like to mention TWO biggest problems of tg right now.
a) Chinesse - Fire lancers should be reworked/nerfed with massive reduction of their anti-landmark DMG and AoE distance-reduction in %. Every single game there is a Chinesse FL spammer even on highest ranks - Its stupidly boring to try to catch them everywhere on map and beeing wiped out if u dont pay attention for a few seconds. By this changes u would not effect its performance in 1v1 and make it less ,yolo pepega strategy, . We should be honest - its stupid, boring and simply wrong.
b) Bombards with 12tiles range+increased HPs
this combination is close to unbeatable - I would say 100% unbeatable when skills are equal - bombards retake springald role and are lethal against everything - From tearing down castles in one salvo into sniping individual units or sniping ships.
My suggestion to rework? - Decrease sight range - I think in overall sight range is (specially in range units case) very underestimate problem in AoE IV - Who on earth though it is okay to give a siege unit much higher vision than for a cavalrymen for example? There should be some unit in front as spotter. Idk why bombard/springald should have same sight range as fire range. - Same problem was in CoH2 for tds. and now u need some unit (benefit for players with proper micro) for spotting.
Or simply do not combine both +2tiles range and 50% HP - its just unbeatable combo. - Now imagine u fight double Chinesse on the same flank - Only real counter is culverin but than again … how many civs have culverin? + its again Chinesse player who has FL who are the best unit to counter enemy siege units.
(Btw. speed of ALL siege engines should be reduced)
Chinesse are not even S tier but tier out of the list. - mostly thanks to those two units.
RUS - Horse archers have tons a bugs around them - from university upgrade flame arrows they dont get +20%dmg but like 40% and their attack speed is faster than on paper - this needs to be fixed (But than again - they are only counter to catch-and kill enemy yoling FL - good luck to catching them with mangonels or spears or huge TG maps you wiseacre.
MAP SIZES
Some maps are simply toooooooo huge. Am not gonna name there just try to take a look on them against AI - some reduction from 10 to 20% would deffinetly help to gameplay on some maps. Like you want to early feudal-rush someone. But before you cross the map enemy is in castle already, you cannot reinforce your rush etc. etc.
MINIMAP
Why some strategies from early 2000s have much much much better minimap than 2021 game? Why is there not a scroll IN-OUT mechanism on minimap? I can barely see relics or sacred sites sometimes. And am in my 20s … I can imagine problems for some AoEII ,veterans, who might be 40+
COMMUNICATION
a)why are orders wrote into native language of a player who pointed something? Some Chinesse words means nothing for me. I know thanks to icon if teammates means danger/attack/deffence but this should be changed to a player language setting like in all others strategy games - this is just supid.
b) Lack of voice communication in TG is simply sick … There are one-studio free games with implemented voice mechanism and simple setting like increase/decrease volume or mute player. This would at least fill up a gap between arranged and random teams.
MM
Arranged and randoms teams should have separate MM in upcoming rankeds. Both sides would benefit from this. Its not a big deal in CoH since there are no early-push strats viable BUT in AoE when 4 players rush one player in fedual its basicily GG even before everything started. One makes longbows, seconds knights, third probably spears with rams etc. etc. - Its uncounterable with actual state of ,communication,
Wonders
There are some maps where wonders are tabu. BUT on some maps like Black forrest (there another point - Why the hell were sacred sites removed? As it was only counter against fast wonder.) are KEY to win.
Their price should be increased depending if its 3v3 or 4v4 - I would say even to 5/5/5/5 from 3/3/3/3 or increase amount of food at least to 7k and let others res. 3k.
OR let a timer to be longer - but than again. Its such a huge benefit for deffending site on some maps as this would not solve a problem.
I deffinetly forgot to mention some of the problems. I will post more bellow if somethink comes to my mind.
And for all origin-english speakers sorry for my potato English but these are issues which NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT. If this all gets fixed there would be no way for me to coming back to CoH2 since I really enjoy the actual game but this kinda ruins whole experience.
I have always thought (and will think) that all balance must be purely mathematical (I understand that unique units have slightly higher stats, but nothing more).
We should first see which units are balanced and, based on those units, balance the others.
Basing your balance on the numbers of a unit / landmark that is “balanced” is the best way I can think of to keep the game fun and have few things broken.
For example, in AoE2, Burmese getting Monastery techs 50% cheaper sounds relatively strong. In practice, it’s rarely used, and Burmese have a relatively low winrate. Just because numbers sound good, or make sense, doesn’t mean they always play out that way in practice. Of course, balancing is a mix of both, and both practice and theory are helpful for working stuff out.
Yes thats another issue but trough all modes and not only teamgames.
Landmarks need massive rework.
Basic types of landmarks
a) Deffensive (castles mostly)
b) agro supportive (mostly to produce units with unique techs.
c) economic (booming)
So in theory it should be choice between 2 of these trough all ages (3 landmarks in total)
In fact landmarks are so poorly balanced so its 90% of the time one and the same landmark.
Something really should be done about them so the game can be more various.
Can’t agree more with nearly every point you said. And the sight problem is especially interesting and fresh as I never heard it before in this forum. I think dev should take a look at this discussion.
But let’s see, one thing is that the civilization has certain bonuses (they may be excessive or not) and another is the balance of buildings and units. It is also true that AoE2 works differently since not all civs have access to the standard technologies of blacksmith improvements, monastery, etc.
The Chinese build defensive units 50% faster and non-defensive units 100% faster.
Abbasids can make rams in Dark Age.
That they have these bonuses does not mean anything, unless there is a strategy that breaks the game.
Yes!! Very good points. Not sure about the wonder cost increasement though. I guess an increase per teammember of say 500 on each resource sounds reasonable to me.
The approach with food instead of other resources is also viable - as especially up to 5k stone will be tough to gather and to not use on keeps if you dont have another mechanic to get stone. However, I feel that in a close game with aggression it would be tough to save up so many resources - which seems to be the best counter to avoiding a world wonder victory.
Another point I would add to your list is reconnecting when your game crashed - obviously the game should then be pausable!!!
Very well written post and this time we two are on the same side
Before I go into ur points I would add that Mongols are still one of the 3 overtuned factions expecially atm when u can build so many Ovoos. There double production is still sometimes not matchable with other factions when they have 1 Ovoo. It is only a little numberchange by the stonecost or a 1,25-1,5 factor by the normal food/wood cost needed to make it a option but not so cutting edge.
Is at the moment THE faction with the most overtuned things.
Firelancers a a plague in 3vs3/4vs4. They should be a niche unit but are trading good vs nearly everything and can end games in seconds.
All units out of the astronomic clocktower aka 50% more HP are borderline broken. Nearly 900 hp on a bombard??? For real palisades have 1k Hp…
The Rus Horsearcher are problematic too but i hope that they are on the nerf/fixlist right now. Rus should be fine after they get pushed into there right spot.
Im frustrated how often I run into abusers of that named units but players often not good persons and will pick the way to easy win there games. sadly
Ban all the cheaters aka dropers ASAP since there is literally no point to play tgs right now because most of them end with no-results
(I love how my complains about HA,bombards and specially FL aged like fine wine btw. - now its nothing else than these 3 units ruining whole experience even among top100)
Forbme the only thing running team games rn is the Chinese Bombard spam.
There are 2 big issues with this unit, first one is that they have the same range as a culverin and upgrades springalds and second one is how much hp they have. You could also throw in there the speed in which they can move and unpack, but I think that by fixing their range and the hp the unit should be fine
I also think that chat box location is a poor choice. It should be lower-left. People are not reading chats.
Map size (or base distance). There’s no stopping a concentrated ram rush. In 3v3, if all 3 rush rams against 1 guy, TC gets killed off before allied troops get there.
More so the ram push than the others. It doesn’t work every time, but it’s really hard to prep for something without good communication between the players.
I think you should have to build multiple wonders to get a wonder victory in team games. Personally, I would like to see the wonder corresponding with the number of players on a team game. You want to win a 4v4 with wonders then you need to build 4. I would be happy though if it was at least increased to 2 wonders for 3v3 and 4v4.
@PresidentPale Wonder victories are particularly tough to fight against on certain maps (black forest), but not completely unbeatable. There are helpful strategies against Wonder Victories that are not all that obvious nor well-advertised, such as capturing sacred sites (except in black forest) or landmark-sniping the player that built the Wonder.
I am not opposed to changing Wonder Victory conditions in team games, but changing the wonder victory conditions in team games can get really complicated really fast:
Increasing number of Wonders in team games: when does the Wonder countdown initiate? After the second one is built? Do you have to destroy both Wonders? Would that make Wonder Victory even harder to defeat? What happens when you eliminate one Wonder? Does the countdown continue/stop? What if you rebuild the 2nd wonder - does the clock continue/restart?
Increasing the cost of Wonders in team games: by how much? Would that deter people from pursuing Wonder victories at all? What happens to the duration of the games - do they just drag on forever into hours-long slugfests of trash units?
For the time being, I think Wonder Victories are OK - there’s both a risk/benefit to them in 1v1 that definitely skews towards benefit as you increase the number of players. I think increasing the cost by 200-500 wood/food/gold per additional teammate may be the most straightforward solution.
I haven’t played much recently due to the balance but yeah biggest issue for me is the Chinese, as you said firelancers are way too strong, seems everyone just wants to landmark snipe in tg. Wonders are also just stupid, why are they even in matchmaking, way too easy to defend even on open maps.
