Whitout projectle travel distance and speed that leads to accuracy, this game cannot be a truly competitive one

[Adribird90]

But what are you doing comparing an RTS with a shooter?

If the game is balanced, that the arrows do not fail does not affect the competitive game, you may like the mechanics more or less, but that’s how it is.

[MahoganyHalo80]

@Adribird90

If the game is balanced, that the arrows do not fail does not affect the competitive game, you may like the mechanics more or less, but that’s how it is.

because accuracy is the same thing or in your opinion it is different?

Let me translate your comment to COD Warzone and let’s see how it will look like.
If the guns are balanced, and the bullets have 100% headshot accuracy, it does not affect the competitive game, you may like the mechanics more or less, but that’s how it is.

Now copy this and post it in COD Warzone forum xD
Let’s see how many streamers and Dr. Disrespect come into your post and fry you there LOL.

[Keempf]

Maybe I can show you the problem with your logic here:
I don’t argue for abandoning turn based concepts in boardgames like chess only cause RTS games are real time.
I don’t want to get rid of guns in GTA cause racing games don’t have it.
I don’t want to introduce base building, economy and tech in CoD only cause Starcraft has it.

I don’t want shooters to be “shoot = hit” cause aiming is the entire concept of the game.
RTS is a different genre and, you probably noticed by now, plays a little bit differently and has a different focus.
I just made a strong argument why this arrow mechanic is in complete contrast to the title of the discussion, that the game “can’t truly be competitive without it”.

And it’s true, no matter how you try to ridicule it with flawed logic.

@Neythesun

You did paragraphs defending why the rng is bad for rts, that’s a mechanic from thumbring ring not from the trajectory , so yeah , you mentioned it indirectly a lot with the intuition of dismantle the topic of the discussion that has nothing related to accuracy odd, thumbering ring.

@Keempf

If someone critizises the gameplay aspect of it, it’s just a designchoice.
While the arrow design definitely made AoE2 more distinct in beeing AoE2, that doesn’t mean it’s a requirement for all Age games and there is no positive/negative to either of these designs.

I, from a competitive point of view, don’t want dicerolling and dmg muting mechanics that stand in the way of balancing rock/paper/scissors, to impact my game.
It’s not as cut and dry as you want it to be folks.

That was my initial post describing what stands in complete oposition to “truly competitive games”.
You forced the discussion that route and keep rerouting it to the RNG point cause you answered that “I haven’t played AoE2 enough probably to know that AoE2 doesn’t have RNG in arrows” and keep coming back to it now.

I still say what I say, not what you want me to say.

@Neythesun

Without balistitcs you would get less punished because it would have a bigger time window, but remembers the less punishment is reciprocal, the ability to dodge with it not necessary , that’s what increases the skill gap, one is equivalent to both, the other one only the better on it would stand out

The answer is: AoE4 punishes it more and that’s why we see more and longer commitment to early game agressions.
That’s at least a bigger part of it.
No matter how much you try to phrase it out, AoE2s arrow mechanic makes it less punishable to react late with vills.

@Neythesun

I trully believe that… I am not saying that the game don’t get people because of the lower specs

@Neythesun

The accessibility doesn’t apply after 2 decades where most of pcs can run any of the age of empires,

oh really?

@Neythesun

@Keempf

Why are you making so many excuses for the most obvious things but then complain about how arrows look out of place.

I am not making excuses about anything , just pointing factual things about age 2, if it makes you edgy I am stopping here because that’s not my point, my point it’s to bring knowledge to the topic, if you want to build a bubble for people with the RNG argument or whatever , feel free my friend.

Your entire point this far is prefixing “I disagree” in your mind and just missquote/argue single sentences in the most disingenuouse way possible to try to make some overarching point of beeing more reasonable than you actually are.

Listen, I don’t care what ppl prefer or not, it’s a designchoice after all.
Everything I was saying, and I repeat this fricking 5 times with quoting myself now:

@Keempf

There’s nothing wrong with liking the other arrow mechanic either.

But trying to bend reality and saying that it has objective reasoning behind why this would make the game better on so many levels is just wrong.
That’s all I’m saying.
When it comes to competitive gameplay I’d even argue into the complete oposite direction.

If anyone disagrees with that, then sorry but you should handle your bias before talking here.

I’m not gonna do this quotegame again and talk myself in circles while quoting myself 10 times over cause ppl don’t like what I say here.

Maybe they react a little bit more on a harsher note?
To anyone that thinks that AoE2 arrows are objectivly just better in any way and make the game more competitive:
You are an idiot.
I don’t know how more clear to phrase it here now.

[MahoganyHalo80]

So what you saying is that technology did not improve for 20 years?

Rock, Paper, Scissors is the basic counter system if they face 1vs1.
You don’t count how many rocks, papers, or scissors are present there.
Every unit and its usage depends on terrain, type, upgraded or not, etc.

If the game was like pure rock paper scissors, it is not a competitive game as it is not complex enough xD
It will turn into a kids game as it is too simple and they will just show scissors using their fingers and rip through paper xD

Mate, at this point you really proved you have flawed logic of RTS LOL

[Neythesun]

@Keempf

oh really?

Yeah, really.

@Neythesun

the same way you think the accessibility attracts people I think the limited visual quality provoked by it’s oldness repulse new people, and being subjective, in my opinion the age factor here works more as boundary to the game than anything else, but this is something that is impossible to know for sure.

@Neythesun

The accessibility doesn’t apply after 2 decades where most of pcs can run any of the age of empires,

I expressed myself badly here indeed, i meant the accessibility it’s not as expressive because the game has 2 decades and most…, but it was indeed wrong. My bad.

@Keempf

You forced the discussion that route and keep rerouting it to the RNG point cause you answered that “I haven’t played AoE2 enough probably to know that AoE2 doesn’t have RNG in arrows” and keep coming back to it now.

Again , another distortion, this is what I actually said:

@Neythesun

. I am replying this because I don’t know if you have not played aoe2 or have not played enough to know how such mechanic works but It’s not RNG, not at all. It’s not RNG because it’s not like RPG where the arrow has chance to hit.

I am not saying that aoe2 doesn’t have RNG (it has because of the thumbring ring), i am saying that the trajectory mechanic have no RNG, " I am replying this because I don’t know if you have not played aoe2 or have not played enough to know how such mechanic works but It’s not RNG", I said this because when you mentioned RNG seemed like you didn’t know that what we are discussing about, so I thought you are unaware of the mechanic.

And here was where I assumed that you were using RNG as a con factor to the mechanic:

@Keempf

If anything, more RNG and more dmg muting mechanics can be the exact oposite of competitiveness.

@Keempf

I, from a competitive point of view, don’t want dicerolling and dmg muting mechanics that stand in the way of balancing rock/paper/scissors, to impact my game.

If you were not referring to the topic mechanic it really made it look because of the placement . It’s completely fine to have subjective views about it (I think it would be good and you think it wouldn’t change anything or being worse, not sure about your position so far) but when I entered the conversation I thought you were building this fallacy(RNG) to discredit the topic, that’s why I jumped in. So, to end the conversation and, as you said, we stop running in circles, we could agree with the objective point that the trajectory mechanic it’s not RNG, right?

@Keempf

You are an idiot.

[LongbowLord]

Since the Devs say they read the forums I will just leave my 2 cents here.

I would like there not to be an infinite range but I am fine with missile tracking side to side. It feels weird and looks weird when you watch arrows bend to follow your unit out of range. Also when you are out of range, you should be OUT of range.

[TsudaTumiko]

Then enjoy the player drop, simple games become boring pretty fast… That’s why games like WH tot war add even more mechanics witch each release, you have more options and more strategy added by those variables. That’s why I always say pros ruined many games when dev start listening to them. They want to make the game boring for them and then when they ruined their they move to other games like they did with SC2 APM fest

[CRothlisberger]

Go tell that to SC2 I guess. They are probably unaware that they are not a truly competitive game…

[Keempf]

Nice anti-intellectualism you open the door for here.
“Why listen to ppl that know what they are talking about? They just make it boring”.

Competitiveness/Balance can go hand in hand with improving the game and implementing mechanics.
It’s absolutely not the oposite of fun/engaging.
And how can you argue that the game can’t be competitive without aoe2 arrow mechanics and then absolutely hate on “pros ruining games with their takes and competitiveness”.
Isn’t that completely contradictory to what you are proclaiming?

If you are interested what truly is wrong with the game and why playerdrop hits so hard:

@Keempf

What this game is holding back from beeing more competitive is the fact that it’s unfinished, not only in a content and balance sense, but in a way of “how do we want to design this thing” on the most basic levels such as siege, water and landmarks.

“Always hitting arrows” is absolutely no factor in how competitive the game can be in its’ overall design…

[MahoganyHalo80]

@Keempf

“Always hitting arrows” is absolutely no factor in how competitive the game can be in its’ overall design…

Its like COD Warzone devs saying, AIMBOT is essential for competitive gameplay therefore we will not remove this feature from our game as it demands no skill xD

[Adribird90]

Stop trolling please.

[MahoganyHalo80]

@MahoganyHalo80

Its like COD Warzone devs saying, AIMBOT is essential for competitive gameplay therefore we will not remove this feature from our game as it demands no skill xD

This is exactly how it feels and looks like when you guys say 100% accuracy does not affect competitive play.

[ViaticalMage44]

It’s a design decision that impacts competitive play. The dev’s have said explicitly that they want the game to be more macro oriented than micro and this is one of results of that design direction. It’s also a design decision I prefer personally.

Just because something is different than AOE2 doesn’t make it wrong. There are plenty of opportunities to showcase your superior micro outside of dodging individual arrows in this game.

[MahoganyHalo80]

LOL, it is not a design choice but a lack of features and mechanics in the game.
The game is released at 30%. We all know that, ain’t we?
There are many mechanics such as friendly-fire etc are missing.

Mangonels and trebuchets already have projectile accuracy which is not 100% and can be dodged. If they were 100% accurate the game would be dead and people would be raging at their finest. But, with projectile accuracy, those units are not as overpowered as other ranged units. This is just a basic example, of how projectile accuracy actually balances sieges and other units. It is partially a quality of life feature and balancing mechanic.

@MahoganyHalo80

Its like COD Warzone devs saying, AIMBOT is essential for competitive gameplay therefore we will not remove this feature from our game as it demands no skill xD

And this is for u2

Episode 1 Clip: Arrows | American Gods

As you can see, the 1st guy is AOE4, AOE2 is the second guy.

[ViaticalMage44]

So you’re telling me that the game engine already supports accuracy less than 100% yet it’s a lack of a feature and not a design decision? Okay.

[MahoganyHalo80]

It seems you have an incredible process of gathering my point xD
It is not fully implemented (to be simple).

[ViaticalMage44]

This is what I know for sure: The game has an accuracy modifier that affects units if they’re standing still or moving am in the most recent patch they modified the accuracy modifier for trebuchets.

What is it that you know for sure where you can speak with such certainty? All I’m seeing from you is biased conjecture.

[MahoganyHalo80]

We will see it, time will prove and answer our questions.

[MahoganyHalo80]

@Adribird90

Stop trolling please.

Translating it to COD Warzone and let’s see how your comment looks and feels like.
Imagine, COD Warzone devs saying: Aimbot with a 100% headshot rate in a competitive game is totally fine and fair! Therefore, anyone against it is a troll and immediately stop such misinformation in our community that is against our glorious Aimbot!

[hikingmike1]

@MahoganyHalo80

Most of the people who don’t want to see this are casuals as they are not able to deal with such pressure. And this is why AOE4 competitive stage is not very attractive and challenging.

I am indeed a casual player I mean I don’t play like SimCity or something, or treaty. I enjoy an intense multiplayer game. But I don’t plan on being highly ranked because I don’t dedicate myself to getting my APM higher or keeping up with most effective tactics/strategies/meta to have an edge.