But then do they keep multiplier vs heavy cav? That would be a heavy cav that counters heavy cav. Weird.
that is not too strange, it basically makes them rifle riders
Thatâs pretty much just the new Oromo. Iâd much rather Hakkapelits be something more like a Hussar-Dragoon hybrid rather than Sweden haveing 2 types of Hussar.
What purpose would they serve tho? Since Swedes already have dragoon musk hybrid. So dragoons arenât really needed, and also you would have to balance the this hybrid since itâs op.
Yes, countering heavy cavalry should be their primary role. Making them both heavy cavalry and light cavalry just means theyâd actually get countered by other Dragoons. Heavy cavalry that counters heavy cavalry also exists already with Cheyenne Riders.
3 Likes
I think itâs fine to just leave it as a ranged light cav.
either gives it a nerf in stats (speed, hp, attack), or increase its cost relative to how strong it is.
right now, itâs 100 food 100 gold, which is only 10 food 10 gold more than a dragoon, but is way stronger.
Go back and read my comments I gave my take on how to balance the hakka.
Clearly it was needed if theyâve reworked Hakkapelits to be light cavalry. Making it also heavy cavalry could be a step to make it actually balanced since that would make them actually vulnerable to Dragoons.
I think we should look at it like this, what role could the hakka fill that Swedes lack? Essentially a skirm, maybe make it like a rifle rider?
I never really understood why it wasnt used in its previous form
its basically a meteor hammer with splash damage and increased range that you can train individually
They were also affected by a ridiculous amounts of cards given that they were also hand cav
China would kill for such a unit
I would just revert the change but allow swedes to much more easily get jeagers ( the church tech gives wood cost which is bad) - so maybe change cost to food and gold and also allowed to be trained in barracks (german merc contract then unlock black riders, landskenct and giant grenadiers)
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Sweden definitely doesnât need something like a Rifle Rider. They can use their artillery to deal with heavy infantry. The skirmisher function they are missing is countering light cavalry. Thatâs probably what they were trying to do with giving Hakkapelits a bonus versus all cavalry in melee, but what theyâve made is obviously too powerful. Their musk-goon unit also falls short in some matchups like against Rifle Riders so having Hakkapelits as anti-heavy cav is hugely beneficial in that matchup. A primitive skirmisher unit such as a European Arquebusier that specializes in countering light cavalry is more what Sweden needs to cover its shortcomings.
It is nothing like a Meteor Hammer. Hakas do ranged damage and Meteors do melee damage. Everything that heavy cav is supposed to counter has ranged resistance.
It was used in itâs previous form, it was just way more situational. And Sweden already has reliable access to Jagers.
it fulfills effectively the same niche, a heavy cav that does damage at range and will path behind a hand melee cav
and even when you do the math with its old stats, hakka deals about the same dps as metoer hammer, even to units with 30 range resist, once you take into account the ROF and the splash
Hakka
26 x 1.5 x 2 x .7 = 54.6
metoer hammer
29x 2 = 58
It effectively trades doing less-ish damage to skirms and cannons and more damage to muskets. Not to mention all the upgrades that the hakka can get
only from one building until you either age with the age 3 age up - which only gives you that and nothing else which is terrible for tempo or send in hire hessian jeagers in age 3 or german merc army in age 4
Not to mention training merc in a tight game is a recipe for disaster
The church tech gives them a wood cost which means training them + another unit is extremely macro intensive
So this means that if you want to mass them effectively in age 3, where a hakka & jeager comp make sense, you need to both get the church tech, and send in hessian jeagers or age up with that merc contractor age 3.
At a minimum the cost needs to be food and gold ( you can even jack up the food cost)
Do you have the old stats of hakkas? If I remember correctly, they had 2 RoF so your calculation should be dividing by 2, not multiplying.
Even if the base DPS is roughly comparable, meteors are way better at the job they need to do. Meteors are exceptionally good against artillery and good against skirms and musks while hakas are only better against heavy infantry. Yes they both serve the role of increasing heavy cav DPS by fighting from the rear, but hakkas arenât nearly as good against units that youâre going to make heavy cavalry against.
Jagers are reliably available, theyâre just not so practical because of cost. But thatâs an issue separate from hakkas that could be better solved by giving Sweden arquebusiers instead of crossbowmen.
the multiplication by 2 is due to the splash, which is a damage cap of x2
base x 1.5 (to equalise to 3 rof) x 2 (splash) x0.7 (range armour)
26 x 1.5 x 2 x .7 = 54.6
So a unit that does similar damage to skirms but are better against musks is somehow not good enough?
When I calculated the DPS, that was against a mass of skirms with 30 range armour.
They have the same DPS as meteor hammers against skirms that even though they are dealing range damage
The only unit they would fare worse against is artillery and that to me is a fair trade off
Stop trying to make this happen, it aint going to happen, no one wants another jan abus comp especially after jan abus just got buffed again
edit: and the jeagers are important cause anti light cav support is what allows a cav skirm comp to work
Agreed! reverting the change is good, I like using them before the change and I also donât understand why they werenât used more before as they were plenty good. I personally loved how they countered musketeers but had to flee from pikemen.
As for jaegers I donât think it needs to go that far, all swedes were missing was a late game solution to dragoons as uncarded veteran crossbowmen can only get you so far.
Okay that makes more sense. Youâre being way too generous with the aoe damage though. They only have 1 aoe so theyâre not going to be reliably hitting multiple units.
They fare worse against skirms, artillery, and cavalry and only do better against melee heavy infantry. Meteors still do well versus musks because they donât put them into melee. They still were viable before, just not as good as meteors like you say.
What Jan-Abus comp are you talking about?
we have had this convo before
Fair enough, agree to disagree. Jan-Abus works because Abus soft counter skirms. A more standard 2 pop light infantry doesnât do that. A Carolean-Arquebusier composition would lose to light infantry and get shredded in melee by heavy cav.
Provided Hakapelit and platoon fire change is reverted, I am all for giving sweden naturalised Royal Arquebusier if itâs implemented the same way as germans getting Chevauleger, by sending a card and replacing production but not replacing crossbowmen in the field.